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How much evidence is there of long term high level UK paedophile ring?

gimesumtruf said:
I think it to be most important that the high level "live suspect" cases be prosecuted with preference, speed and harshness.
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Justice needs to be blind, to be justice, which means no preference.
Harshness will lie with the court's decision, and any need to punish, but a judge can't sentence outside of established guidelines for the crimes committed, unless they want the case to be chucked out on appeal.
 
ViolentPanda said:
Justice needs to be blind, to be justice, which means no preference.
Harshness will lie with the court's decision, and any need to punish, but a judge can't sentence outside of established guidelines for the crimes committed, unless they want the case to be chucked out on appeal.
Click to expand...
And in the Janner case, perhaps more than most, any information that might lead to further prosecutions, and the way in which it is uncovered, needs to be unimpeachable. I have a feeling that what we're picking at here might be a long and well-connected thread.
 
existentialist said:
Sadly, it does not beggar belief at all.
UK society was operating in a state of total denial regarding sexual abuse of any kind...from sexual abuse of women to child sexual abuse, it was ignored, laughed off, and utterly denied. Sure, we'd joke about the pervy games teacher or the inadequate with a penchant for friendships (which were probably harmless) with young kids, but in doing so, we studiously ignored the army of careful, skilful abusers who had made their stock in trade the violation of - particularly - innocents. Society sent these people the message that the risk of getting caught was minimal, and the likely penalties no more than token, given our unwillingness to acknowledge what was going on in plain view under our noses. I know of several schoolteachers who were given their marching orders "or we're calling the police" - an empty threat, since no school wanted to be bothered with the aggravation of a (likely futile) prosecution, so sex abuser teachers could safely move on to pastures new and totally innocent of their history...because, for sure, no reference given was ever going to risk disclosing their predilection.

To make things worse, the stigma of child sexual abuse was just bad enough to ensure that abusers would close ranks and collude in ways that inevitably put their victims at even greater risk, through networks of abusers, and "intelligence sharing" of a kind that meant their naive victims stood no chance of overcoming.

Surprise? Nah. It's not even surprising that it's taken this long to come out.

The true surprise will come when we learn just how endemic this has been - and continues to be - in our society.

ETA: and of course, in all of this, the one group no thought whatsoever was given to was the people who suffered at the hands of both their abusers, and a society which refused to listen to or take seriously their experiences.
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The difference was though kincora was a massive scandal from the get go . From day one of the story breaking back in the early 80s fingers were being pointed at the intelligence services , police and prominent unnamed individuals ...politicians and civil servants . Even back then there were demands for transparency in the investigations .people appointed to committees meant to oversee it were resigning in disgust because the investigation was a farce and a cover up . And a cover up that went to downing street and Whitehall . The RUC chief at the time asked for an outside force to come in and investigate to...ostensibly...avoid bias . But in reality he knew they'd cover it up, and he just didn't want to be tainted as part of that cover up .

Even today they're still at it . May has done her best to ensure that the kincora case will be treated separately from the others . That it'll be investigated....and buried...over here in the same tired and usual shitty fashion . Far away from any proper scrutiny . I believe that's the case that can do them serious harm myself .
 
ViolentPanda said:
Justice needs to be blind, to be justice, which means no preference.
Harshness will lie with the court's decision, and any need to punish, but a judge can't sentence outside of established guidelines for the crimes committed, unless they want the case to be chucked out on appeal.
Click to expand...

You are right of course but it is hard to swallow having watched as the 2011 rioters got hammered, did'nt D Cameron call for justice for them along the lines as I do for the paedophiles.
 
Casually Red said:
That it'll be investigated....and buried...over here in the same tired and usual shitty fashion . Far away from any proper scrutiny . I believe that's the case that can do them serious harm myself .
Click to expand...

The case can damage them on some additional fronts that aren't applicable to some other abuse cases, but I wouldn't start compiling a leaderboard of which are more likely to do harm to 'them'.

I might claim that it will lack a shock factor because it's such a well known scandal, but I shouldn't because if stuff happens to splash it all over the frontpages in a media frenzy then it will cause a load of people to hear of and think about this shit in ways they probably haven't in the past.

One reason it won't necessarily stand out in terms of damage is that there is a mental trick some people will play in order to contain the horror of any revelations about what games the state was playing at the expense of children. They can file it under the 'oh the troubles were dirty, lots of dark shit happened on all sides' phenomenon. And I don't just mean the scum that would justify such acts on that basis, but a broader group who will hang their heads and feel very gloomy or angry about this shit, but still manage to keep it away from contaminating their broader impression of the state 'at times of peace'.

Certainly when it comes down to the abuse as a whole, I think if it were not for the involvement of the security services etc then it would be slightly easier for the state to deal with the shitstorm and bubbling desire for justice. Its now beyond obvious that they couldn't put a lid on it all, and that the best defence in terms of the reputation of the state and all that goes with it, is the passage of time. The reputation of a number of decades in this country is expendable, and thats what we are getting at a minimum, some honesty about the actual stench of those times. But when it comes to cynical security service strategies, tactics etc, they have so many reasons to be afraid to go there, not least because we haven't been able to see very much of how those services have evolved over the decades. Given the pathetic crumbs we've received over the decades such as officially being allowed to say the services actually exists, perceptions of that dark zone might not safely buffer their acts of decades ago from the popular imagination as to what games they get up to now.
 
elbows said:
Its now beyond obvious that they couldn't put a lid on it all, and that the best defence in terms of the reputation of the state and all that goes with it, is the passage of time. The reputation of a number of decades in this country is expendable, and thats what we are getting at a minimum, some honesty about the actual stench of those times.
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Well said.
 
ViolentPanda said:
Neat bit of theatre though, Daddy being infantilised before the cameras.
Click to expand...
Can't help but think the choice of clothing for court was also part of this (scroll down to the 'returning home' picture):
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33931860
Not really that important in the scheme of things, but it looks like this was all part of the twatty entitled game his lawyers were playing today.
 
....it worked though....I went & bought a Sunday people this morning for "the file"....meanwhile...


SECRET files linking Leon Brittan to the Westminster paedophile scandal were suppressed until after his death, it was claimed.

Don Hale and Marcus Chippindale / Published 15th August 2015

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/459488/Abuse-claims-cover-up-paedophile-scandal

A retired MI5 officer says the dossier was deliberately buried until after the former Home Secretary’s death in January and May’s General Election.

He told the Daily Star Sunday its existence was hushed up for months after it was uncovered in 2014.

Our intelligence source said the alleged cover-up stopped Brittan being quizzed.

But a Cabinet Office spokesman insisted the files were only found on January 22 – the day after Brittan died.

....subtle...
 
existentialist said:
Sadly, it does not beggar belief at all.
UK society was operating in a state of total denial regarding sexual abuse of any kind...from sexual abuse of women to child sexual abuse, it was ignored, laughed off, and utterly denied. Sure, we'd joke about the pervy games teacher or the inadequate with a penchant for friendships (which were probably harmless) with young kids, but in doing so, we studiously ignored the army of careful, skilful abusers who had made their stock in trade the violation of - particularly - innocents. Society sent these people the message that the risk of getting caught was minimal, and the likely penalties no more than token, given our unwillingness to acknowledge what was going on in plain view under our noses. I know of several schoolteachers who were given their marching orders "or we're calling the police" - an empty threat, since no school wanted to be bothered with the aggravation of a (likely futile) prosecution, so sex abuser teachers could safely move on to pastures new and totally innocent of their history...because, for sure, no reference given was ever going to risk disclosing their predilection.

To make things worse, the stigma of child sexual abuse was just bad enough to ensure that abusers would close ranks and collude in ways that inevitably put their victims at even greater risk, through networks of abusers, and "intelligence sharing" of a kind that meant their naive victims stood no chance of overcoming.

Surprise? Nah. It's not even surprising that it's taken this long to come out.

The true surprise will come when we learn just how endemic this has been - and continues to be - in our society.

ETA: and of course, in all of this, the one group no thought whatsoever was given to was the people who suffered at the hands of both their abusers, and a society which refused to listen to or take seriously their experiences.
Click to expand...

Really?

I know of the brother of a friend of mine who was sexually abused at school - don't know the details mind - and the teacher was definitely shown his marching orders straight to prison.

Also the case with friends of friends of mine at a different school.

The language you use is typical of this hysteria - a marauding army of paedos lurking in the shadows...

There's something typically British about all this stuff. We had a round of paedo-fear in the early 00s - remember that Brass Eye episode? - and this looks an awful lot like the same pitchfork like crusades.
 
Also, and I think I have made this point before on this thread. There was not one Geoffrey Dickens dossier. As far as I recall, there were around 8.
 
Diamond said:
Really?

I know of the brother of a friend of mine who was sexually abused at school - don't know the details mind - and the teacher was definitely shown his marching orders straight to prison.

Also the case with friends of friends of mine at a different school.

The language you use is typical of this hysteria - a marauding army of paedos lurking in the shadows...

There's something typically British about all this stuff. We had a round of paedo-fear in the early 00s - remember that Brass Eye episode? - and this looks an awful lot like the same pitchfork like crusades.
Click to expand...
Your experiences may differ from mine.

I don't think that makes it necessary to assume - or mindread - that mine are somehow fabricated as some kind of "paedofear".

Indeed, had you the vaguest idea of my posts on the subject, you'd know what a stupid assumption that was to draw.

But then, stupid assumptions seem rather to be your thing.
 
Diamond said:
Really?

I know of the brother of a friend of mine who was sexually abused at school - don't know the details mind - and the teacher was definitely shown his marching orders straight to prison.

Also the case with friends of friends of mine at a different school.

The language you use is typical of this hysteria - a marauding army of paedos lurking in the shadows...

There's something typically British about all this stuff. We had a round of paedo-fear in the early 00s - remember that Brass Eye episode? - and this looks an awful lot like the same pitchfork like crusades.
Click to expand...

In fact I think this crosses the line and I've reported it. Telling people who have been subjected to physical and sexual abuse that it never happened and they're being hysterical is either trolling or just evil.
 
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