How do you stay full on a vegan diet?

[Karl Masks]

2000kcals is for women, men have higher metabolisms and I think average is nearer 2500kcals. So even if you don’t think you’d need that much, 1800kcals is almost certainly going to be pushing you into negative energy balance, if not starvation mode. I’ll look up what the “volunteers” were given in the famous Ancel Keys study about what happens when we don’t eat enough for our daily requirements.

Surely that depends on activity levels though. Maybe I'm not eating enough, but I think 2500 may be pushing it a bit. I also would have to double my food budget! :O

Only so much you can eat in one sitting. Though I suppose if you ate more fat the caloric density would help.

Maybe more meals then? Eating smaller meals more often is a valid choice for many people. But also fat is more energy dense so if you added more good quality fat to meals (hello avocados!), you’d be getting more energy from portions that seem the same size as what you’re eating.

Is that healthy though? I was always told that if you eat more often your body doesn't get a chance to rest and ends up drenched in insulin and stress. Maybe that's just nutrition BS. I guess I will have to tryu, but I can't be eating meals every hour or so surely!

 

[nottsgirl]

I’m hazarding a guess that’s not 650 calories. How are you calculating that? 100g drained chickpeas is only about 120 calories.

 

[gentlegreen]

But also fat is more energy dense so if you added more good quality fat to meals (hello avocados!), you’d be getting more energy from portions that seem the same size as what you’re eating.

Yes I'm bothered by my excessive tahini consumption and am trying to nudge back to carbs, but so much fat (at least 40 percent - so to be generous - "Mediterranean" ... ) does seem to help with satiety ...
I'm trying to keep any experimental rice "resistant" like the beans I eat so many of ...
But my issues are psychological - I can't remember ever feeling genuinely hungry.

 

[xenon]

Rather than three big meals, maybe six small ones spread across the day? I’m not a fan of three square meals. Might work if you work in the fields or something.

 

[Karl Masks]

…for some people with kidney disease, yes. Have you worked out how much protein you are eating per day?

If it is 3 of the meals you have mentioned, adding up to 90g total, then that’s a pretty healthy amount.

(Your BMI is 22.4 btw - I’m assuming you are an adult of European descent- weight 65kg and height 5 feet 7 inches)

It's been about 80g. Perhaps closer to 30g per meal, so between 80-90.

Let's ignore the BMI question as I have no idea what it is, and can't measure it. I'm not overweight so it's likely average.

Maybe 90g is too low? I used to eat more before vegan but that's because of the meat

Yep the Minnesota Starvation experiment gave healthy male participants 1800 calories, which was considered a semi starvation diet and caused a number of negative physical, cognitive and psychological effects.

The much maligned (thanks, keto) Ancel Keys.
So I'd heard of this, but I didn't know how much they were(n't) eating. 1800 kcals? I've been eating roughly that for ages anyway. Sometimes more sometimes less, weight staying relatively stable at 65kg. years ago it was much higher and I went low carb and got it down. I'm struggling to think 1800 is starvation levels, that's wild!

I guess I'm going to need more beans.

EDIT: it's not just their energy intake, they were told to expend 3009kcals, so the issue isn't their caloric intake but the energy deficit. I don't know how much acivity is required to expend that amount of energy, but clearly i'm not meeting it else I'd see it on my body

 

[Brainaddict]

My feeling is that the meal itself has the nutrients, it's just my body doesn't like it.

Not wanting to be mean, but I think something has gone a bit funny with your relationship with food. It seems to be costing you a lot of thinking, and a lot of self-monitoring. Unless you are ill you should be able to eat what you need fairly easily and without having to think about it, even on a vegan diet. It's true that eating no meat can make you feel less full, but most people fairly easily replace this with wholemeal carbs, healthy oils, nuts and seeds and legumes. I feel like you might need to reset your relationship to food somehow, maybe get some help with it.

For what it's worth, I get hungry between meals every day, so snack quite consistently through the day, mostly on nuts. It's never caused me any angst though, I just eat if I'm hungry. I don't think all this calculation is doing you any favours.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

we know that unsaturated fats are healthy and that saturated fats and cholesterol are the problem. Or at least cholesteroal is a strong indicator of heart disease.
we know we need essential fatty acids

Well actually that’s the thing that’s being questioned these days. Or at least it’s being raised if things are a lot more complex than sat fat and cholesterol just being “bad”.

I personally am a firm advocate of the “everything in moderation” idea.

I'm eating a diet that's about 40/45% carbs, 15% protein and the rest in fats. More like a plant based mediterranean diet I guess. Just no meat/dairy. Perhaps that would be best for me

Are you? That meal you posted sounded pretty low in fat.

But I think I agree with Mrs Miggins . Whatever meal plan you’re trying to follow, if you’re hungry so much then it’s probably not right for you and maybe it’s best to experiment with eating more intuitively, remaining mindful of getting enough of the various different nutrients needed. Same applies to the calories thing. You may not need the whole 2500 but if 1800 is causing these issues, you probably need more (being in negative energy balance will make you feel more subjectivity hungry more often in itself).

Btw from the other post, little and often is often recommended for people who have gastro issues such as reflux. But it’s probably not so good for someone who has constipation. It’s not bad in itself, it just depends what’s right for you.

 

[Karl Masks]

Yes I'm bothered by my excessive tahini consumption and am trying to nudge back to carbs, but so much fat (at least 40 percent - so to be generous - "Mediterranean" ... ) does seem to help with satiety ...
I'm trying to keep any experimental rice "resistant" like the beans I eat so many of ...
But my issues are psychological - I can't remember ever feeling genuinely hungry.

Can you share what you eat, in terms of nutrients? Are you low carb, it sounds perhaps that is so.

If that is ok.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Not wanting to be mean, but I think something has gone a bit funny with your relationship with food. It seems to be costing you a lot of thinking, and a lot of self-monitoring. Unless you are ill you should be able to eat what you need fairly easily and without having to think about it, even on a vegan diet. It's true that eating no meat can make you feel less full, but most people fairly easily replace this with wholemeal carbs, healthy oils, nuts and seeds and legumes. I feel like you might need to reset your relationship to food somehow, maybe get some help with it.

And sorry to bang on about being in negative energy balance again , but it is precisely that which contributes to these sorts of attitudes and preoccupations about food. This is information that is very established in the sphere of eating disorders/disordered eating.

 

[Karl Masks]

Not wanting to be mean, but I think something has gone a bit funny with your relationship with food. It seems to be costing you a lot of thinking, and a lot of self-monitoring. Unless you are ill you should be able to eat what you need fairly easily and without having to think about it, even on a vegan diet. It's true that eating no meat can make you feel less full, but most people fairly easily replace this with wholemeal carbs, healthy oils, nuts and seeds and legumes. I feel like you might need to reset your relationship to food somehow, maybe get some help with it.

I don't doubt your premise at all. Food has always been a weird thing in my life. For years I was hypoglycemic and ended up quite overweight in a cycle of, ironically, oats and banana for breakfast or some other cereal, hungry half an hour later, buy chocolate, rinse and repeat, sugar crash. Then I went down the low carb rabbit hole and it was really only the pandemic that exposed most of the keto/low carb advocates as utter cranks and charlatans. Now, that's not to say low carb is unhealthy per se, as it's not. But it is restricting and it does contribute to disordered eating and can lead to bad nutrition knowledge. The carbohydrate insulin model for example. Or the idea that fibre is actually something to avoid.

I'm not sure where help can be found though. Not unless you can afford private nutritionists, and even then where to find someone that isn't a quack. Social media and youtube are full of self professed diet experts, many of them as I'm sure you'd agree, are not.

For what it's worth, I get hungry between meals every day, so snack quite consistently through the day, mostly on nuts. It's never caused me any angst though, I just eat if I'm hungry. I don't think all this calculation is doing you any favours.

It's the situation of eating a large, ostensibly healthy, meal and feeling hungry an hour later. I don't think that's how we're meant to work. Snacking is one thing, being peckish a few hours later isn't a huge issue in context

 

[8ball]

I think what you need is a dietitian rather than a nutritionist. And a few recipes. And if your weight and height are accurate and you are not mis-remembering, then unless you can see most of your ribs with your shirt off you may find a resistance training programme helpful.

But I think the most important points to consider are still these:

650kcal is definitely not a big meal.

That's the kind of meal size I'd be eating if I wanted to lose weight.

Potatoes are quite filling I find. Eat more spuds!

And nuts.

and

Is it nice?

(because food has an important psychological and social role as well as the physical)

 

[gentlegreen]

Can you share what you eat, in terms of nutrients? Are you low carb, it sounds perhaps that is so.

If that is ok.

Difficult to say as I refuse to weigh my food and I only have scales, calorie-calculator and a rough stab at my exercise level ... and cronometer annoys me...
But tahini makes it at least 40 percent of calories from fat and I also eat peanut butter and a lot of flax seed ...
I even get 54g of my hoped-for 85g of protein from the tahini...
Until I get my lipids done again, I would not recommend so much "healthy" fat - and in fact I would prefer to have a post-prandial lipid test...
I was very high carb all through my 20s and into my 30s and feel happiest there...("Okinawa").

85 g of protein - 340 kcals = 14 percent ...

leaving 40 percent carbs...

 

[8ball]

Difficult to say as I refuse to weigh my food and I only have scales, calorie-calculator and a rough stab at my exercise level ... and cronometer annoys me...
But tahini makes it at least 40 percent of calories from fat and I also eat peanut butter and a lot of flax seed ...
I even get 54g of my hoped-for 85g of protein from the tahini...
Until I get my lipids done again, I would not recommend so much "healthy" fat - and in fact I would prefer to have a post-prandial lipid test...
I was very high carb all through my 20s and into my 30s and feel happiest there...("Okinawa").

85 g of protein - 340 kcals = 14 percent ...

leaving 40 percent carbs...

You were in Okinawa through your 20s?

 

[Karl Masks]

Well actually that’s the thing that’s being questioned these days. Or at least it’s being raised if things are a lot more complex than sat fat and cholesterol just being “bad”.

To a degree it depends on what the food is. The ZOE guys say that dairy can be healthy. There are different types of saturated fat and we eat them within whole foods. But the evidence surrounding satrated fat remains pretty clear. Better to eat unsaturated.

I personally am a firm advocate of the “everything in moderation” idea.

Are you? That meal you posted sounded pretty low in fat.

It has 30g of fat. I'm not sure i'd call that low. Sources are flax, tofu and nuts. Though small amounts exist withing everything else so it all adds up.

But I think I agree with Mrs Miggins . Whatever meal plan you’re trying to follow, if you’re hungry so much then it’s probably not right for you and maybe it’s best to experiment with eating more intuitively, remaining mindful of getting enough of the various different nutrients needed. Same applies to the calories thing. You may not need the whole 2500 but if 1800 is causing these issues, you probably need more (being in negative energy balance will make you feel more subjectivity hungry more often in itself).

It would be a shame if veganism didn't work for me. I would like to be able to eat and benefit from as wide a variety of foods as possible.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

To a degree it depends on what the food is. The ZOE guys say that dairy can be healthy. There are different types of saturated fat and we eat them within whole foods. But the evidence surrounding satrated fat remains pretty clear. Better to eat unsaturated.

It’s more that the original public health advice on sat fat and cholesterol was based on very few studies, and further studies started questioning some of that wisdom. Plus as diets moved towards more refined carbs, studies started to show problems (including cardiovascular) with those diets. But fad diets take these findings and run off with them in a way that’s not supported by the available science, and then we get situations where it’s hard to know what to do. Food science is constantly evolving and I’d probably steer clear of anything that claims to be the final word on the subject or “the way” of doing things.

This lancet publication sounds interesting even if it is does seem to take a lot of words and effort to conclude “everything in moderation”. But obviously a lot of vegans do manage to do that very well within plant based constraints, so don’t give up on finding your right balance, you’re just not there yet.

This is the last time I’ll mention it but whether 1800 calories is enough for your needs or not, a lot of what you’re describing could be down to it not being. What you want to do with information is up to you.

 

[Karl Masks]

I appreciate the responses

 

[8ball]

I still want to hear about gentlegreen ‘s adventures in Okinawa.

 

[metalguru]

I'm not skinny. So if what you're saying is true, then i'm clearly not bmi 22. But I can't measure.

As I'm speaking, I'm hungry again. I only had breakfast just under an hour ago. Same meal. It's crazy. Can't be a lack of nutrients. Must be something I'm not tolerating. Perhaps oats

That does sound odd... What are you drinking during the day ? What happens if you have a mug of coffee/tea when you feel hunger starting up again? It's possible to mix up the signals for thrust and hunger.

 

[Sue]

Try a TDEE calculator to get an idea of your maintenance calories (it takes into account how much exercise you do too). I'd say though your protein is too low. Up it to 120/130g or something and see what difference that makes. (Some high protein snacks might be a plan.)

You could also split your dinner up so you eat it in more than one go.

 

[8ball]

Try a TDEE calculator to get an idea of your maintenance calories (it takes into account how much exercise you do too). I'd say though your protein is too low. Up it to120g or something and see what difference that makes. (Some high protein snacks might be a plan.)

You could also split your dinner up so you eat it in more than one go.

Wow - that’s a lot more protein than I would have expected someone to recommend on urban a few years back.

I think the dietary reference value they give for a man is still something like 70g, though I’d consider that outdated.

 

[kalidarkone]

I don't doubt your premise at all. Food has always been a weird thing in my life. For years I was hypoglycemic and ended up quite overweight in a cycle of, ironically, oats and banana for breakfast or some other cereal, hungry half an hour later, buy chocolate, rinse and repeat, sugar crash. Then I went down the low carb rabbit hole and it was really only the pandemic that exposed most of the keto/low carb advocates as utter cranks and charlatans. Now, that's not to say low carb is unhealthy per se, as it's not. But it is restricting and it does contribute to disordered eating and can lead to bad nutrition knowledge. The carbohydrate insulin model for example. Or the idea that fibre is actually something to avoid.

I'm not sure where help can be found though. Not unless you can afford private nutritionists, and even then where to find someone that isn't a quack. Social media and youtube are full of self professed diet experts, many of them as I'm sure you'd agree, are not.



It's the situation of eating a large, ostensibly healthy, meal and feeling hungry an hour later. I don't think that's how we're meant to work. Snacking is one thing, being peckish a few hours later isn't a huge issue in context

Regarding the above, your feeling hungry all the time and your admission to a "weird" relationship with food.....

I really recommend reading Susie Orbachs "On eating " book.

It addresses the emotional feelings around food, suggest that one doesn't weigh or measure food and that one works on the premise of eating and stopping when you are full. She advises that you eat whatever you want, whenever you want - as long as you are hungry in your tummy. NOT your head or your mouth. She advised to get a whole heap of chocolate, biscuits, crisps, whatever floats your boat and you can have it whenever you want as long as you are hungry for it in your tummy and you stop when you are full. You can finish it later when you are hungry for it.

So that first week I had many plates of left overs...eventually binned as I wasn't hungry for them in my tummy..It really helped me regulate myself for quite a significant time.

Guess what? I am never hungry in my tummy for chocolate, biscuits, crisps or cake- these are head foods. All my emotional suppressing food stuff stayed in the cupboard. (It takes a lot of mindfulness)

I did this for 6 months and it completely tuned me into my bodily sensations around hunger. I myself have/ had a really fucked up relationship with food and part of my childhood abuse was to be on a diet from 6 years old and then continue to diet as an adult to get control or binge.

The greatest thing I got from it apart dropping weight that needed to be dropped...was ascertaining the difference between physical hunger in my belly and emotional hunger/emptiness that I would feel in my throat and chest. No amount of food will stop the second feeling. Chocolate etc are not satisfying nutritionally ime - it's a head/ emotional hit, satisfaction- but not to be confused with being full in your belly- that is a different thing.

 

[ouirdeaux]

Yep the Minnesota Starvation experiment gave healthy male participants 1800 calories, which was considered a semi starvation diet and caused a number of negative physical, cognitive and psychological effects.

I find this rather strange. Also, that link says they were eating 3200 calories a day before the experiment started, and were expected to expend around 3009 calories per day while it was going on. Most people would put on weight eating 3200 calories, assuming they weren't sportspeople or doing heavy manual labour.

 

[gentlegreen]

I still want to hear about gentlegreen ‘s adventures in Okinawa.

I meant it figuratively.
Hinting at climbing trees in my 90s on a diet of miso soup and sweet potatoes...

When I went vegan at 21, I lived on stirfry at a time when there were no cans of beans at the supermarket so I mostly ate them sprouted .. and there was much less tahini...
Very heavy on grain - Mostly WG rice and millet, sometimes multiple other grains...

--------------

I just grabbed lunch :-

Almost as much for the small glass of wine as for the calories, but the sensation of fullness is also calming..

Most of a can of chickpeas
Half a jar of Polish shredded cabbage salad - research has suggested that vinegar has health benefits...
Generous amount of milled flaxseed
tahini...

 

[8ball]

I meant it figuratively.
Hinting at climbing trees in my 90s on a diet of miso soup and sweet potatoes...

… I thought Shoyu Pork was more the local style, but I’m happy to have yours.

 

[gentlegreen]

… I thought Shoyu Pork was more the local style, but I’m happy to have yours.

apparently they eat a token amount of pork...

 

[UnderOpenSky]

and that saturated fats and cholesterol are the problem.

Well maybe

Is Butter Back? The Truth About Saturated Fats

What’s the real story on saturated fat? Can you eat red meat and butter again? WebMD tells you what you need to know.

www.webmd.com

 

[UnderOpenSky]

I've been eating a fair bit of vegan(ish) food this month, trying to loose weight and save a few quid.

Good old rice and beans with veg on the side leaves me feeling fairly sated, especially if there's some fat in the beans. Just wish my IBS allowed me to eat it more often. Aldi's own tofu is actually pretty good and very cheap, which also makes veggie meals more complete.

 

[8ball]

apparently they eat a token amount of pork...

A pretty generous token from what I can tell.

“Stir fried bitter melon” is also a v popular dish, apparently - sounds intriguing.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

I find this rather strange. Also, that link says they were eating 3200 calories a day before the experiment started, and were expected to expend around 3009 calories per day while it was going on. Most people would put on weight eating 3200 calories, assuming they weren't sportspeople or doing heavy manual labour.

What part? The idea that people are impacted cognitively and emotionally by a certain level of restrictive diet, or that it could happen at 1800 calories for a man?

Tbf I’m not saying that 1800 calories would lead to such significant symptoms of starvation syndrome in men, but it is 700 calories less than the suggested average and unless you’re particularly small, you would expect at the very least to see a drive to eat more food at that intake. Humans don’t like being in negative energy balance; from an evolutionary perspective it makes no sense. This is why dieting is really hard and often doesn’t work long term.

As for the greater calorie requirements at the start, I’m not sure but people did expend more energy in the past (fewer energy saving devices, poorer heating, less sedentary leisure activities or time for such activities etc.). Whilst you have to interpret such data with caution, there‘s an interesting spike in the average British weight around the time that TV remote controls became a common thing. There’s a not unpersuasive argument that weights are increasing because of a decrease in these little but frequent bursts of activity.

As for the actual study, yes it’s terrible from an ethical point of view and would never get approval today. It’s not great from a design perspective either (no control group for a start). But like Harlow’s monkeys and the idea of attachment, it did help develop knowledge of the psychological impacts of food restriction.

 

[8ball]

When I was on Mirtazepine I had to exercise a lot to not gain weight while on only 1600 cals a day.

So I guess meds and other circumstances will affect things. Plus KM is a pretty small guy so doing fine on 90% of an average man’s maintenance intake sounds plausible.