How do you stay full on a vegan diet?

[Agent Sparrow]

72%. And tbf that might be sufficient for some small built, non active men, but if said man is hungry all the time then it’s worth considering if it’s not. But I’m saying this more generally now rather than badgering KM

Or the other thing (if you’re always hungry) is whether the calculation is correct in the first place - it’s very easy to get it wrong in either direction by rounding up or down.

 

[8ball]

72%. And tbf that might be sufficient for some small built, non active men, but if said man is hungry all the time then it’s worth considering if it’s not. But I’m saying this more generally now rather than badgering KM

Or the other thing (if you’re always hungry) is whether the calculation is correct in the first place - it’s very easy to get it wrong in either direction by rounding up or down.

Ah, yeah was going with 2,000. It’s what I kind of aim for at the moment (knowing I’m going to fail).

Agree on all your other points too.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Ah, yeah was going with 2,000. It’s what I kind of aim for at the moment (knowing I’m going to fail).

Agree on all your other points too.

And likewise I completely agree/acknowledge that we are talking about averages, and some things (like meds or health conditions) can quite dramatically change things.

 

[scifisam]

50g overnight oats, 30g blueberries, 100g chickpeas, 100g tofu, broccoli, 10g pecans, 20g flax, some sliced courgette.

largely in a bowl. Not some weird smoothie either. Comes to about 650 kcals.

I've no idea what my BMI actually is. I'm about 65kg maybe a couple of pounds above. Not overweight. Not esepcially skinny. Probably average bmi.

My weight isn't really doing anything.

I must admit, it sounds like "here are healthy things together in a bowl" rather than "here is a recipe that tastes good and is healthy." I could be wrong - does it taste good?

Would you consider splitting it into oats/blueberries/pecans for one meal, and the rest in another meal (maybe up the ingredients a bit for both)l? I know you said you'd read that multiple meals was unhealthy, but I've definitely read the exact opposite, because you can read every piece of advice everywhere. Fat bad! No, fat best. More protein! No, less protein!

You are doing better than most at including enough vegan protein though. That's where most people fall down.

You're too full from that meal and hungry again quickly - it seems like your body wants meals with a shorter gap between them. It's probably sensible to listen to your body more than anyone else, including us.

 

[Karl Masks]

I must admit, it sounds like "here are healthy things together in a bowl" rather than "here is a recipe that tastes good and is healthy." I could be wrong - does it taste good?

That's exactly what it is. I'm by no means a chef.

It tastes like all the ingredients. Most of which you'd combine anyway. Admittedly having berries with tofu is a bit odd, but that's only because it's easier to put eberything in one bowl, rather than have the oats and berries in a bowl and the tofu and beans and veg on a plate

Would you consider splitting it into oats/blueberries/pecans for one meal, and the rest in another meal (maybe up the ingredients a bit for both)l? I know you said you'd read that multiple meals was unhealthy, but I've definitely read the exact opposite, because you can read every piece of advice everywhere. Fat bad! No, fat best. More protein! No, less protein!

Well that's exactly the problem with nutrition science. There are more opinions than scientists!

Substituting the oats might be a good idea.

You are doing better than most at including enough vegan protein though. That's where most people fall down.

That's why i'm tracking. You have to plan properly to avoid missing out nutrients.

You're too full from that meal and hungry again quickly - it seems like your body wants meals with a shorter gap between them. It's probably sensible to listen to your body more than anyone else, including us.

I'm not sure I have that much food if Im going to be eating that often! Not joking, food is expensive enough as it is

 

[littlebabyjesus]

As others have said, protein makes you feel fuller for longer. It takes longer to digest than carbs and also uses more energy to digest. So it's not just about total number of calories consumed. What proportion of those calories are carbs/protein/fat is also very important, and you need to eat more or fewer total calories depending on that combo.

 

[Karl Masks]

It’s more that the original public health advice on sat fat and cholesterol was based on very few studies, and further studies started questioning some of that wisdom. Plus as diets moved towards more refined carbs, studies started to show problems (including cardiovascular) with those diets. But fad diets take these findings and run off with them in a way that’s not supported by the available science, and then we get situations where it’s hard to know what to do. Food science is constantly evolving and I’d probably steer clear of anything that claims to be the final word on the subject or “the way” of doing things.

It is constantly evolving, but there are some things we can be certain about.

This lancet publication sounds interesting even if it is does seem to take a lot of words and effort to conclude “everything in moderation”. But obviously a lot of vegans do manage to do that very well within plant based constraints, so don’t give up on finding your right balance, you’re just not there yet.

Thanks

This is the last time I’ll mention it but whether 1800 calories is enough for your needs or not, a lot of what you’re describing could be down to it not being. What you want to do with information is up to you.

It could be, but the paradox is that I'm eating a meal that fills me up, but doesn't keep me full. That's the problem. I don't think forcefeeding myself extra calories is healthy.

That does sound odd... What are you drinking during the day ? What happens if you have a mug of coffee/tea when you feel hunger starting up again? It's possible to mix up the signals for thrust and hunger.

I drink water. I have a cup of ginger tea with meals. I can't drink coffee or normal tea as it makes me ill/shaky. Always has.

Wow - that’s a lot more protein than I would have expected someone to recommend on urban a few years back.

I think the dietary reference value they give for a man is still something like 70g, though I’d consider that outdated.

That is the recommended amount (roughly .8g per kg lean bodyweight). But there is some contention as to whether that's enough.

Regarding the above, your feeling hungry all the time and your admission to a "weird" relationship with food.....

I really recommend reading Susie Orbachs "On eating " book.

It addresses the emotional feelings around food, suggest that one doesn't weigh or measure food and that one works on the premise of eating and stopping when you are full. She advises that you eat whatever you want, whenever you want - as long as you are hungry in your tummy. NOT your head or your mouth. She advised to get a whole heap of chocolate, biscuits, crisps, whatever floats your boat and you can have it whenever you want as long as you are hungry for it in your tummy and you stop when you are full. You can finish it later when you are hungry for it.

So that first week I had many plates of left overs...eventually binned as I wasn't hungry for them in my tummy..It really helped me regulate myself for quite a significant time.

Guess what? I am never hungry in my tummy for chocolate, biscuits, crisps or cake- these are head foods. All my emotional suppressing food stuff stayed in the cupboard. (It takes a lot of mindfulness)

I did this for 6 months and it completely tuned me into my bodily sensations around hunger. I myself have/ had a really fucked up relationship with food and part of my childhood abuse was to be on a diet from 6 years old and then continue to diet as an adult to get control or binge.

The greatest thing I got from it apart dropping weight that needed to be dropped...was ascertaining the difference between physical hunger in my belly and emotional hunger/emptiness that I would feel in my throat and chest. No amount of food will stop the second feeling. Chocolate etc are not satisfying nutritionally ime - it's a head/ emotional hit, satisfaction- but not to be confused with being full in your belly- that is a different thing.

View attachment 409154

Thanks. That sounds interesting.

However the hunger I'm talking about from these meals is definitely visceral, tummy hunger. At least that's how it seems. Sometimes you can distract yourself and find that your huner isn't physical in that way, but that isn't the case here.

But perhaps just eating in response will help balance out. Hopefully I will adapt

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Perhaps paradoxically, increasing your activity levels can help to reduce your appetite. Helps to keep your cells operating with healthy metabolic pathways, doing their jobs rather than trying to make more of themselves. That's also thought to help protect against cancer, especially if you're over 50. Doing something that gets you out of breath regularly is important in that regard.

This book is great on the chemistry behind that.

Transformer: The Deep Chemistry of Life and Death — Nick Lane

 

[8ball]

That is the recommended amount (roughly .8g per kg lean bodyweight). But there is some contention as to whether that's enough.

I think consensus is swinging round to the idea that you can drop the “lean” part of that, at least.

Also, if getting a significant portion of it isfrom grains and pulses, there’s an argument for upping the overall amount a bit more.

 

[8ball]

Perhaps paradoxically, increasing your activity levels can help to reduce your appetite. Helps to keep your cells operating with healthy metabolic pathways, doing their jobs rather than trying to make more of themselves. That's also thought to help protect against cancer, especially if you're over 50. Doing something that gets you out of breath regularly is important in that regard.

This book is great on the chemistry behind that.

Transformer: The Deep Chemistry of Life and Death — Nick Lane

I can def agree here. When I was hitting the weights I didn’t want much more than a protein shake for a long while after.

Also helps direct your body to making up the deficit with body fat rather than lean tissue.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think consensus is swinging round to the idea that you can drop the “lean” part of that, at least.

Also, if getting a significant portion of it from grains and pulses, there’s an argument for upping the overall amount a bit more.

Consensus now is also that everyone is different. There are no one-size-fits-all dietary recommendations.

 

[8ball]

Consensus now is also that everyone is different. There are no one-size-fits-all dietary recommendations.

Yeah, but “general” guidelines on protein have gone up a fair bit in the last few years (partly because the old guidelines were based on the minimum to not get sick).
And re: everyone being different, it seems likely that as people get older the requirements only go up <post-puberty period aside>.

While it’s not “one size fits all”, I think with the foods we have available there are still a lot of suitable diets for each person. It’s not like some expensive neverending quest to find “the one”.

And obv if you change your activities that will change things too.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yeah, but “general” guidelines on protein have gone up a fair bit in the last few years. And re: everyone being different, it seems like as people get older the requirements only go up <post-puberty period aside>.

Read an article recently saying that the 18.5-25 BMI recommendation needs changing. There's no evidence that BMI of 25-30 increases mortality, while a low BMI is more dangerous for old people than a slightly high one, as it leaves you without the reserves to deal with periods of illness.

That 18.5-25 'healthy' range used by the NHS was originally chosen more or less at random. There's no particular science behind it. Strikes me that you have to be seriously skinny to be underweight by that measure, and only a tiny bit tubby to be overweight.

 

[8ball]

Read an article recently saying that the 18.5-25 BMI recommendation needs changing. There's no evidence that BMI of 25-30 increases mortality, while a low BMI is more dangerous for old people than a slightly high one, as it leaves you without the reserves to deal with periods of illness.

That 18.5-25 'healthy' range used by the NHS was originally chosen more or less at random. There's no particular science behind it. Strikes me that you have to be seriously skinny to be underweight by that measure, and only a tiny bit tubby to be overweight.

The whole BMI thing was never meant to be about comparing individuals with an “ideal”, anyway. It’s history starts off murky and then becomes a reasonably useful way of comparing populations, then gets applied to obesity concerns largely for the reason that it’s really easy to calculate.

I wouldn’t be certain as to whether just changing the range would be all that helpful, but maybe…

Would probably introduce a few suboptimal trade-offs in any case.

 

[Karl Masks]

is it best to transition all at once, or slowly over a couple of weeks?

I still have a bit of chicken in the fridge!

 

[Epona]

Other people have put it far better than I, but it does sound as though it's an issue with your relationship with food.
I love my grub (possibly a bit too much, I'm not coming to this convo from a completely balanced position myself) and your meals sound... really clinical and boring (sorry if that is wide of the mark, but I see a lot of numbers for calories and not a lot about flavours).
I know from experience that if I don't have an interesting meal planned sometimes won't bother eating, and if I have a bland, boring meal (or something like a meal replacement shake, I didn't last long on slimfast back in the day!), my brain doesn't register that I have eaten, and I still feel hungry.
Feeling hungry can be a symptom of boredom as much as not having eaten enough in a nutritional sense.
(And vegan diets do not have to be boring, I was veggie for 20 years and half of my family is vegan so I am used to cooking veggie and vegan meals)

 

[nottsgirl]

I sometimes eat vegan meals but they tend to be from recipes. For instance I made this

Baked Hispi Cabbage in Smoky Tomatoes and Tahini

A perfect winter warmer dish that combines all of my favourite ingredients. A rich smoky tomato sauce and a thick tahini drizzle over baked, charred cabbage.

www.rebelrecipes.com

And it was delicious. With a bit of bread or rice that is definitely a full meal. Costwise you need to stock up on a few basics like herbs and spices but cooking from recipes helps you to feel satisfied.

 

[gentlegreen]

I still have a bit of chicken in the fridge!

perhaps you need to stop using the term "vegan" ?

 

[gentlegreen]

With that I have completely lost interest in this thread - and the other one ....

 

[Epona]

I sometimes eat vegan meals but they tend to be from recipes. For instance I made this

Baked Hispi Cabbage in Smoky Tomatoes and Tahini

A perfect winter warmer dish that combines all of my favourite ingredients. A rich smoky tomato sauce and a thick tahini drizzle over baked, charred cabbage.

www.rebelrecipes.com

And it was delicious. With a bit of bread or rice that is definitely a full meal. Costwise you need to stock up on a few basics like herbs and spices but cooking from recipes helps you to feel satisfied.

That looks fantastic, will have to give it a go!
I spent a while wondering what a hispi cabbage was, then read the description on that page and realised they are often called sweetheart cabbage which is the name I know them by

 

[girasol]

I find beans/pulses are very filling. I do wish my calorie intake was 2000 calories a day, but, unfortunately, for someone my size/gender/age my BMR is quite low and I only need around 1400 calories a day, without exercise - post menopausal women need fewer calories. I have to exercise so that I can eat more without putting on weight (it really doesn't take long for me to start on putting on weight). And even with an hour's exercise, it's around 1800 calories, depending on how strenuous the exercise is.

A full bowl of my bean chilli is only around 300 calories and it keeps me full until dinner when I have it for lunch. Thing is you'd need a pressure cooker for that - which I highly recommend! Also it requires overnight soaking of the pulses. If you want the recipe let me know, I'll post it. I also top it up with nuts for extra nourishment.

(I'm not a vegan/vegetarian, but I restrict meat to 2-3 days a week max)

 

[girasol]

Here's the recipe anyway

It’s very important that the beans are soaked overnight (or for a minimum of 6 hours). I drain and change the water once during the soaking period.

Ingredients:
I get about 5 good sized bowls out of this, 285 calories per serving. It can be adjusted for more or less, and also frozen, but I prefer fresh, hence these amounts, so I can have it over a week without having to freeze. Note it’s very important to soak the items marked “soak overnight” – otherwise there will be bloating and stomach will feel uncomfortable, as well as taking longer to cook.
5 Chopped garlic cloves
1 chopped onion
1 chopped chilli (add more or less according to taste)
1 400g can of tinned tomatoes (never tried with fresh tomatoes)
1 tablespoon of tomato puree
1 teaspoon of brown sugar (for the acidity)
150g DRY weight – Red kidney beans (soaked overnight)
200g DRY weight – Black beans (soaked overnight)
90g DRY weight – Soup mix – alternative could be a mix of brown rice, lentils, barley -(soaked overnight).
80g DRY weight – Chickpeas (soaked overnight)
1 teaspoon turmeric (more or less according to taste) – I put turmeric on everything as it helps with middle age aches and pains…
1 Stock cube + 500ml of hot water (beef, chicken, vegetable…)
1 teaspoon of salt (add more or less according to taste)
150g frozen Edamame beans
I sometimes also add a bit of ginger and cinnamon for that extra spicy feeling. I add the frozen edamame beans once the cooking is all done and let it rest for a few minutes before eating. The beans will get defrosted and cooked just right in the heat.

Preparation:
Saute onions, chilli, (ginger) and garlic for a few minutes in vegetable oil (I use olive oil).
Stir in the soaked and rinsed beans and soup mix. Add the remaining ingredients (except for edamame beans) and stir well. Cook on High Pressure for 16 minutes (or Chilli Bean button) and QPR (Quick Pressure release). Add Edamame beans and let it sit for around 10 minutes.

If I’m extra hungry I throw in a handful of mixed nuts and milled flaxseed, which also adds an extra crunch.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Here's the recipe anyway

That's quite cool. I cook pulses in the pressure cooker or slow cooker, but never cooked the whole lot up together.

 

[8ball]

I sometimes eat vegan meals but they tend to be from recipes. For instance I made this

Baked Hispi Cabbage in Smoky Tomatoes and Tahini

A perfect winter warmer dish that combines all of my favourite ingredients. A rich smoky tomato sauce and a thick tahini drizzle over baked, charred cabbage.

www.rebelrecipes.com

And it was delicious. With a bit of bread or rice that is definitely a full meal. Costwise you need to stock up on a few basics like herbs and spices but cooking from recipes helps you to feel satisfied.

That reminds me (adds tahini to shopping list).

 

[Karl Masks]

Other people have put it far better than I, but it does sound as though it's an issue with your relationship with food.
I love my grub (possibly a bit too much, I'm not coming to this convo from a completely balanced position myself) and your meals sound... really clinical and boring (sorry if that is wide of the mark, but I see a lot of numbers for calories and not a lot about flavours).
I know from experience that if I don't have an interesting meal planned sometimes won't bother eating, and if I have a bland, boring meal (or something like a meal replacement shake, I didn't last long on slimfast back in the day!), my brain doesn't register that I have eaten, and I still feel hungry.
Feeling hungry can be a symptom of boredom as much as not having eaten enough in a nutritional sense.
(And vegan diets do not have to be boring, I was veggie for 20 years and half of my family is vegan so I am used to cooking veggie and vegan meals)

Clinical?

I have never been bothered by whether a meal is fancy or boring as long as it tastes nice and gives a growing boy what he needs. Honestly I can eat the same meals every day, it's never been an issue having endless breakfast permutation's or whatever. I just don't think of food as something that needs to excite me.

 

[Karl Masks]

Perhaps paradoxically, increasing your activity levels can help to reduce your appetite. Helps to keep your cells operating with healthy metabolic pathways, doing their jobs rather than trying to make more of themselves. That's also thought to help protect against cancer, especially if you're over 50. Doing something that gets you out of breath regularly is important in that regard.

This book is great on the chemistry behind that.

Transformer: The Deep Chemistry of Life and Death — Nick Lane

no doubt. But for the moment i'm dealing with some health issues that preclude taking up big exercise. So i stick to walking

 

[Karl Masks]

perhaps you need to stop using the term "vegan" ?

Hence the question I asked about transitioning.

 

[Epona]

Clinical?

I have never been bothered by whether a meal is fancy or boring as long as it tastes nice and gives a growing boy what he needs. Honestly I can eat the same meals every day, it's never been an issue having endless breakfast permutation's or whatever. I just don't think of food as something that needs to excite me.

Fair enough, we're clearly very different people then
(FWIW, it's not about food being fancy, it's about it being interesting and varied, which personally is something I need and get excited by - and unless you have a digestive issue or are on a restricted diet for medical reasons, variety is the best thing you can do for gut health)

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

You don't seem to be overweight yet mention diet a few times and seem to be restricting your calorie intake.

It might not be the foods you're eating that are at risk of being unhealthy, but more your attitude to weighing them and calorie counting.

Maybe trying stopping weighing foods and calorie counting and eat what you like - in moderation - until you feel full.

Do you have a history of problems with being overweight and struggling to lose weight/eating disorder(s)?

 

[Karl Masks]

Fair enough, we're clearly very different people then
(FWIW, it's not about food being fancy, it's about it being interesting and varied, which personally is something I need and get excited by - and unless you have a digestive issue or are on a restricted diet for medical reasons, variety is the best thing you can do for gut health)

ZOE say you should eat 30 different plants a week, including spices. I don't mind that kind of variety, but if the core of the meal is the same I'm not bothered if on Sunday I have cabbage with it, and Monday I have Fennel. But I'm just not bothered about eating different meals, never have been.