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Grenfell Tower fire in North Kensington - news and discussion

DaveCinzano said:
Now, I'm not saying anything about the people being featured in the video - the video has clearly been assembled from other people's footage - but that ‘filmmaker’ is clearly of a dubious political background.

They're called ELITE NWO AGENDA, and they post up videos which claim that - say - the London Bridge terror attack was a staged/false flag incident, reupload Alex Jones InfoWars clips, have an obsession with the gold standard, is pro-Trump, etc. ENWOA's core audience is alt-right and the like.

Elite NWO Agenda
Elite NWO Agenda is creating VIDEOS | Patreon
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Are you absolutely raving mad? I didn't check who the video was uploaded by but on looking just now I see it's someone with a youtube account called witness who has this video and 11 others about katie fucking Perry ffs, you fucking sock-muppet. And the rest of you paranoics who went, yeah, it's oiks agenda. What a bunch of numpties. Get a life.

Go take a look in the mirror. Unfuckigbelievable. You couldn't make this shit up.

Here's the video in question if anyone wants to contrast the information themselves. Or is katie Perry part of some kind of strasserite conspiracy?

 
mauvais said:
This isn't mutually exclusive from holding people to account for their (in)actions - indeed the two are inevitably interwoven. Updated policies and procedures mean nothing without accountability for them.

This in itself is nonsense and comes close to victim blaming, not to mention self-flagellation.

There is a good point in there somewhere and I'll make it for you: when a plane crashes, at least in British jurisdiction, the ensuing investigation deliberately avoids blame in the interests of future prevention. If you go in pointing fingers, the people with the most important evidence withhold vital information or even lie. It's crucially important that this doesn't happen. You can have an accident that consists in its practicalities entirely of basic human errors and is thus entirely preventable, but which simultaneously didn't involve malice or abject unreasonableness on anyone's part. Instead it can be something that's only enabled by the compound failure of systems and processes, and any resolution needs to recognise that in order to fix them, not pin the blame on the unfortunate meatsack that happened to be at the centre of it on that particular occasion.

So it is here. But it's also important that if good process based on prior lessons did already exist, or could have existed were it not for negligence, that someone be held accountable for their part in it. Otherwise you can have all the structural reform you can shake a stick at, but it's totally empty because noone ever need comply. Oh it's not your fault, we are all to blame. Sod that.
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Sigh. Bunfights seem to be the order of the day in this forum even in threads like this where behaviour should be a bit more dignified. I have no wish to participate in a bunfight, however I will make a few points in response to your comments and then call it a day.

Collective responsibility does NOT mean that nobody is held to account. This is not about blaming anybody. Mistakes were made and lessons need to be learned to lessen the chance of the same thing being repeated. I just don't think that a screaming mob is the way to achieve that. Even if it was true that it was a single individual that made the mistake that caused the fire and we publicly execute that individual for being the cause of so many deaths, we would still have to find out why the checks and balances were not in place that would stop that from happening. I suspect that there isn't just one person, but a multiple "points of failure" that need to be addressed. You disagree with the idea of collective responsibility, that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion.

SpookyFrank said:
If you live in London you can choose between a tory council that will run down and clear out social housing or a labour council which will do the same. You can't lay these things at the door of ordinary people when you've got a broken system in which no democratic choice, no action permitted within that system will bring the changes needed.
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Again it's not about blame. If we want better governance and better decision making, we have to elect better decision makers. If we sit back and say "tories and labour are all the same, they're all crap so we can't do nothing", then nothing will change and we unfortunately will get the government we deserve. The politicians who do our bidding are elected by us. If they make crap decisions and we replace them with "different" politicians who also make crap decisions, it is still us who elected them. If we want better people in charge then we need to get better at picking good ones. That is not victim blaming. It is up to those of us who believe that Jeremy Corbyn is better than the other lot to do what we can to get him elected and to make the positive changes that he promises. Sitting back and blaming others and shouting them down etc isn't the best way to get shit done imo.
 
bi0boy said:
The tube lines were not closed due to a danger of the building collapsing.
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I haven't suggested they were. Indeed the post of mine you are quoting was agreeing with one by Mauvais saying precisely the opposite. My clear understanding is that the fire brigade do not think the building is likely to collapse.

bi0boy said:
This has been stated by the LFB, so unless you think they are lying then it's down to baseless speculation by the BBC.
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I simply stated what the BBC had said. I'm baffled how you draw from this that I'm suggesting that anyone is lying. Debris could fall on the track because of work carried out, or because of vibration, or because of structurally weakened elements of the building giving way without any specific intervention, or indeed for some other reason. I don't pretend to know which of these risks is more or less likely any more than I pretend to know which media source is more or less accurate or more or less unmediated. I can say that I would have more confidence in your own abilities in this area if you seemed a bit better at reading my posts as opposed to interpreting them.
 
PaoloSanchez said:
Sigh. Bunfights seem to be the order of the day in this forum even in threads like this where behaviour should be a bit more dignified. I have no wish to participate in a bunfight, however I will make a few points in response to your comments and then call it a day.

Collective responsibility does NOT mean that nobody is held to account. This is not about blaming anybody. Mistakes were made and lessons need to be learned to lessen the chance of the same thing being repeated. I just don't think that a screaming mob is the way to achieve that. Even if it was true that it was a single individual that made the mistake that caused the fire and we publicly execute that individual for being the cause of so many deaths, we would still have to find out why the checks and balances were not in place that would stop that from happening. I suspect that there isn't just one person, but a multiple "points of failure" that need to be addressed. You disagree with the idea of collective responsibility, that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion.


Again it's not about blame. If we want better governance and better decision making, we have to elect better decision makers. If we sit back and say "tories and labour are all the same, they're all crap so we can't do nothing", then nothing will change and we unfortunately will get the government we deserve. The politicians who do our bidding are elected by us. If they make crap decisions and we replace them with "different" politicians who also make crap decisions, it is still us who elected them. If we want better people in charge then we need to get better at picking good ones. That is not victim blaming. It is up to those of us who believe that Jeremy Corbyn is better than the other lot to do what we can to get him elected and to make the positive changes that he promises. Sitting back and blaming others and shouting them down etc isn't the best way to get shit done imo.
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Not persuaded you've grasped collective responsibility tbh
 
Anudder Oik said:
Are you absolutely raving mad? I didn't check who the video was uploaded by but on looking just now I see it's someone with a youtube account called witness who has this video and 11 others about katie fucking Perry ffs, you fucking sock-muppet. And the rest of you paranoics who went, yeah, it's oiks agenda. What a bunch of numpties. Get a life.

Go take a look in the mirror. Unfuckigbelievable. You couldn't make this shit up.

Here's the video in question if anyone wants to contrast the information themselves. Or is katie Perry part of some kind of strasserite conspiracy?

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You do protest too much
 
SpookyFrank said:
. mega-rich wankers who are not gonna give a shit about housing for the people who clean their houses and drive their cabs.
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You say this, but if you want to pay them not very much they need to live close by - minimum wage won't pay for a 2 hour commute.

Alex
 
Dogsauce said:
He runs (or rather is) the company that provides the forecasts for the nutty Daily Express weather headlines ('coldest winter for decades ahead' etc.)
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Why do they need someone to tell them that - surely they can just make it up it's the same every year !
 
PaoloSanchez said:
I suspect that there isn't just one person, but a multiple "points of failure" that need to be addressed. You disagree with the idea of collective responsibility, that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion
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No, I don't disagree with this or the preceding statement at all - the very opposite. It's extremely likely to be a very complex web of responsibility. But this is not what you were saying.

PaoloSanchez said:
Again it's not about blame. If we want better governance and better decision making, we have to elect better decision makers. If we sit back and say "tories and labour are all the same, they're all crap so we can't do nothing", then nothing will change and we unfortunately will get the government we deserve. The politicians who do our bidding are elected by us. If they make crap decisions and we replace them with "different" politicians who also make crap decisions, it is still us who elected them. If we want better people in charge then we need to get better at picking good ones. That is not victim blaming.
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Yes it is. It says that people who die in these things are themselves somehow responsible because they elected their way into it, or otherwise failed to change the system. The government they deserved, the fate they deserved. And I know that's not what you mean, but it is the logical follow-on of what you're saying.

To use your phrase, if we want better governance and better decision making, we have to elect better decision makers, and hold the ones we have to account. For some people, that means directing their anger at who they perceive to be responsible.
 
teqniq said:
Me too not being a royalist and all but she has gone up in my estimation somewhat for meeting and speaking to survivors. Doubtless it was as has already been pointed out in part motivated by a desire to shaft May, but still.
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The BBC got a bit carried away, quite something to behold. She is apparently holding the nation together with her bare hands as we speak.

In a long reign, the Queen has issued countless statements. They can sometimes be formulaic and lack the ability to resonate.

This is not one of them.

After the attacks in Manchester and London, the Queen - and more importantly her senior advisers - have grasped quickly that the reaction to the Grenfell Tower fire has not just been one of shock and grief.

There's also intense anger. It has been focused on the divide between rich and poor and it has been directed at an establishment that includes the monarchy, though the institution itself has not been the subject of criticism.
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In such circumstances, as Head of Nation - a focal point at times of tragedy - the Queen has decided she cannot remain silent.

She, and those around her, will be acutely aware of the potential for growing disquiet in the days ahead.

And so, a 91-year-old monarch with little concrete power but considerable patronage and status, has decided to act.

This is a regal rallying call for unity.
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London fire: Queen reflects on 'sombre national mood' - BBC News
 
Im coming in to this debate late. Can someone explain to me why there's talk of hundreds dead?

I used to work in social housing-and one of the areas had tower blocks. As a landlord we knew the occupants-and the amount for each flat. Granted there'll be variations such as guests staying over etc

So why is there talk of deaths running into the 'hundreds'?

Is this just conspiracy theory or is there any substance in this?
 
Casual Observer said:
As well as not being a lawyer, I'm not a structural engineer either but Grenfell Tower has a concrete frame which is known for it's fire resistance qualities so is unlikely to collapse. The twin towers, which were built around the same time, were steel framed and thus more likely to buckle when exposed to extreme prolonged heat. That's my amateur assessment.
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Ah yes, but the Twin Towers were also pre-wired with massive explosives and were also hit by holographic, missile firing rockets made to look like passenger aircraft. At least, that's what Jazz told me.
 
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