Grenfell Tower fire in North Kensington - news and discussion

[teuchter]

An automated mailing system that made the people hand delivering the letters to it and do it with no control over their body's actions? They're remotely controlled robots that can step over debris and dodge past grieving relatives but are you to deliver mail? I mean I'm not an expert on automated mailing systems either but I suspect that's beyond the council's budget.

The original tweet posted on this thread, which I responded to, made no mention of them having been hand delivered.

Having just checked back, I see that it was edited, after I responded, to include this.

I was making the simple point that the officer who sent it out, who was probably not wealthy or powerful, may have done so via some mechanism that initiated the process before the fire started.

 

[YouSir]

Anyone know if tonight's protest is happening? If they've already started at the town hall?

 

[NoXion]

Who is the person speaking now on iPlayer?

 

[Pickman's model]

I was feeling for the poor council staff who were not at fault over this and must be terrified at the invasion of their offices. As posted earlier, they are stretched beyond their limits due to job cuts etc. not had a pay rise for a long time and suffering further because of decisions taken by a few.
The tory led council in this were shit but Is this not more of a reflection of a broken Britain and the demo was a long time coming. Should the demo not target May/the government/Downing Street....the "bigger picture".

Storming the council offices will only hamper the people who are trying to sort out homes for many of those poor people.

i think the kctmo offices separate from the rbkc offices, as the tmo an almo

 

[Sprocket.]

I agree, and I hope that the anger that people have doesn't result in more fires and more deaths because of rioting. I do hope that there is a change in attitude that results in meaningful change and is not dismissed and ignored by those in charge.

My fear primarily is that any outbursts of violence, however justified, will favour those guilty for this terrible, criminal incident.
The pot is boiling but the authorities are masters at making us appear guilty by caring and resisting.

 

[Pickman's model]

Anyone know if tonight's protest is happening? If they've already started at the town hall?

it is

 

[YouSir]

it is

Cheers.

 

[editor]

Who is the person speaking now on iPlayer?

A friend of one of the victim's families. He's got an unenviable job.

 

[Pickman's model]

.

 

[J Ed]

My fear primarily is that any outbursts of violence, however justified, will favour those guilty for this terrible, criminal incident.
The pot is boiling but the authorities are masters at making us appear guilty by caring and resisting.

I cannot imagine how angry someone who is directly or indirectly impacted must be.

 

[Lord Camomile]

The systemic problems that led to the tragedy are one thing, but the way the responses have been bungled is astonishing. Just across the board.

How have they continued to fuck up so badly, every step of the way?! May's 'visit', the lack of involvement from the council... fucking bemusing

 

[Pickman's model]

The systemic problems that led to the tragedy are one thing, but the way the responses have been bungled is astonishing. Just across the board.

How have they continued to fuck up so badly, every step of the way?! May's 'visit', the lack of involvement from the council... fucking bemusing

yeh you'd think someone was masterminding things from behind the scenes, deliberately scuppering any attempt at a coherent response

 

[hash tag]

i think the kctmo offices separate from the rbkc offices, as the tmo an almo

It is nothing to do with general staff and due to the nature and size of this awful tragedy, many councils are trying to help find homes Etc. for those affected.
Understand with the anger but it is wrongly directed and not helping those in need of help.

 

[J Ed]

The systemic problems that led to the tragedy are one thing, but the way the responses have been bungled is astonishing. Just across the board.

How have they continued to fuck up so badly, every step of the way?! May's 'visit', the lack of involvement from the council... fucking bemusing

The people who rule us are incompetent losers who also hate us.

 

[Teaboy]

I've found this detail from the application for the approval of details reserved by condition, which can be found here:

Planning Search

I've attached two images of the same detail, the second image is just a closer look of the first one. It does detail horizontal cavity fire barriers and shows how the cladding panels are mounted to the structure of the building. It says the windows are aluminium framed.

View attachment 109487 View attachment 109488

Interesting. Thanks for posting.

Its drawn in a rather odd way but I suspect its been drawn more with a view to how the glazing works then regard the cladding, the cladding is probably detailed better on a different set of drawings. One thing that is apparent though is the lack of mention of intumescents which does leave the cavity exposed. I'm going to guess and say they anticipated any fire would escape through the window and then make its way along the building via the insulation, once it reached a fire break it would go no further.

Personally I have never thought fire breaks should be on a building over 12 metres, it should all be no combustible insulation such as Rockwool. Unfortunately building regs are there to be interpreted.

What does appear to be clear (unless there are other drawings which are different) is that no one foresaw the possibility of the fire being so intense that the panels themselves caught or it could just skip over the fire breaks. In short, from what I can see I don't think it's great detailing but its not exceptionally bad. I'm increasingly think we're looking at a combination of indifferent detailing, questionable products, bad interpretation of regs and just bad and not fit for purpose regs. And this is before we get inside the building.

 

[neonwilderness]

The Guardian are reporting that protestors have entered the town hall with a list of demands

 

[Pickman's model]

It is nothing to do with general staff and due to the nature and size of this awful tragedy, many councils are trying to help find homes Etc. for those affected.
Understand with the anger but it is wrongly directed and not helping those in need of help.

tbh what will almost certainly have happened is staff able to leave the building will have been directed to go home.

 

[Lord Camomile]

The people who rule us are incompetent losers who also hate us.

Aye, but normally they're a bit more competent than this. This has been nuclear-grade incompetence. Basic, basic stuff, that's in their own fucking interests to do!

 

[Teaboy]

An automated mailing system that made the people hand delivering the letters to it and do it with no control over their body's actions? They're remotely controlled robots that can step over debris and dodge past grieving relatives but are you to deliver mail?

So what you're saying is the Maybot delivered them herself. I did wonder what she was doing in the area.

 

[Pickman's model]

Found a nice place for some of those without a home. Only 1.8 miles walk from Grenfell Tower.

don't care for the chair coverings

 

[planetgeli]

I thought I heard this wrong but now I can quote from The Guardian.

The protesters also requested a list of the number of people in Grenfell Tower.

The response was:

This is not a matter for the council but for the coroner, police and other emergency services.

WTF?

 

[Treacle Toes]

I thought I heard this wrong but now I can quote from The Guardian.



WTF?

It's a massive side step.

 

[teuchter]

you haven't said what a horrible disaster this is, and until you can demonstrate that you actually give a shit about what happened at grenfell tower perhaps you might cease posting on this thread.

You're using this tragedy to score points.

It goes without saying that it's a horrible disaster and horrific for anyone involved. And as I work in the building industry and am sometimes involved in specifying materials to deal with fire risk, looking at what has happened here is frightening and upsetting. For me it is important to understand what actually went wrong.

I don't feel the need to advertise my emotional response in public. I didn't know it was a competition for display of empathy. Congratulations on your efforts on that front. But I'll not say any more on this thread for now.

 

[Pickman's model]

I thought I heard this wrong but now I can quote from The Guardian.



WTF?

flabbergasting

surely the police etc would ask the council for a list of the number of people - tenants and their families - living there? surely easy enough to say "there's 450 people living there" or however many.

 

[J Ed]

flabbergasting

surely the police etc would ask the council for a list of the number of people - tenants and their families - living there? surely easy enough to say "there's 450 people living there" or however many.

Reminds me of how any question about the NHS is met with some bollocks about stigma and mental health.

 

[Pickman's model]

You're using this tragedy to score points.

It goes without saying that it's a horrible disaster and horrific for anyone involved. And as I work in the building industry and am sometimes involved in specifying materials to deal with fire risk, looking at what has happened here is frightening and upsetting. For me it is important to understand what actually went wrong.

I don't feel the need to advertise my emotional response in public. I didn't know it was a competition for display of empathy. Congratulations on your efforts on that front. But I'll not say any more on this thread for now.

nice use of a strawman, no one's asking you to have your emotional response here.

 

[planetgeli]

flabbergasting

surely the police etc would ask the council for a list of the number of people - tenants and their families - living there? surely easy enough to say "there's 450 people living there" or however many.

Yep. But like you said further up, it's almost like someone is deliberately scuppering things. Fucking unbelievable incompetence.

 

[Sea Star]

don't care for the chair coverings

what? They're fucking gorgeous. You have no taste! Disappointed in you, Pickers.

 

[DaveCinzano]

Anyone have any insight into whether this might be true?

Video: Govt “puts ‘D-notice’ gag” on real #Grenfell death toll #nationalsecurity

Doubt it, because:

1. Skwarkbox
2. There is no way it could be known exactly how many perished before the entire block had been painstakingly checked through
3. The fire was very public, and there is widespread acceptance/belief, based on the relatively small numbers of casualties in hospital, the ‘stay put’ advice, the ‘no one escaped the top three floors’ statements, that the total fatalities will likely rise very high

What possible benefit is there from obscuring an as-yet unknowable number which many will likely have accurately speculated upon?

Also:

No, There Isn't A "D-Notice" Banning The Media From Reporting Details Of The Grenfell Fire

 

[Dogsauce]

Interesting. Thanks for posting.

Its drawn in a rather odd way but I suspect its been drawn more with a view to how the glazing works then regard the cladding, the cladding is probably detailed better on a different set of drawings. One thing that is apparent though is the lack of mention of intumescents which does leave the cavity exposed. I'm going to guess and say they anticipated any fire would escape through the window and then make its way along the building via the insulation, once it reached a fire break it would go no further.

Personally I have never thought fire breaks should be on a building over 12 metres, it should all be no combustible insulation such as Rockwool. Unfortunately building regs are there to be interpreted.

What does appear to be clear (unless there are other drawings which are different) is that no one foresaw the possibility of the fire being so intense that the panels themselves caught or it could just skip over the fire breaks. In short, from what I can see I don't think it's great detailing but its not exceptionally bad. I'm increasingly think we're looking at a combination of indifferent detailing, questionable products, bad interpretation of regs and just bad and not fit for purpose regs. And this is before we get inside the building.

Looking at some of the pictures, it's obvious the aluminium exterior has burned up, but there appears to be a fair amount of the insulation material remaining, albeit charred and with a broken up/fractured surface. I don't know if this is just a skeletal residue after combustion or indicates that the insulation didn't actually burn that well and may have to some extent resisted burning.

Possibly also worth considering that they may have used different types of insulation or panelling in different areas of the facade, with more combustible materials providing a conduit. Sure we'll know in due course.