Grenfell Tower fire in North Kensington - news and discussion

[Treacle Toes]

Council leader 'never been in high-rise' before fire - BBC News

....after ELEVEN years as a councillor for the area, she never once canvassed the residents in her borough who live in the council blocks.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Why not? It's a catch-all phrase for subsidised housing made affordable for various groups...

How is it "made affordable"?

 

[ViolentPanda]

"financially regulated and funded by the government"
If funding building and keeping rents affordable isn't subsidising, what is? Where does the money come from? Nowhere did I claim any money came directly from the taxpayer...

If you had half a wit, you'd know that funding from central government is derived from remittances from local authorities of rents and Council Tax. In other words, no subsidy. Rents in social housing aren't "kept affordable", they're affordable by virtue of the fact that most local authority social housing has paid for itself twice over, so there's no imperative to charge a so-called market rent. Are all Tories as wilfully-ignorant as you?

 

[DotCommunist]

some opportunist MP speculating on getting the carnival moved. Never let a tragedy go to waste eh.Typical.

 

[BigTom]

How is it "made affordable"?

If this was a sensible person with bad english skills I would suggest that they might mean "made" as in "built" or "designed", which is exactly what council housing was - housing built and designed to be affordable.
Of course that's not what was meant!

 

[andysays]

This story is worth reading

Grenfell fire: 'I was too afraid because I'm undocumented'

There have been persistent claims that the Grenfell Tower death toll is higher than official estimates because there were undocumented residents living there. One such woman explains why she is too afraid to come forward to the authorities.

 

[Paul__Macca]

This story is worth reading

Grenfell fire: 'I was too afraid because I'm undocumented'

So... you want illegal immigrants to be rehoused FOC from the crowdfund dough?

 

[editor]

So... you want illegal immigrants to be rehoused FOC from the crowdfund dough?

What do you want to do with the people who have lost family members, Paul?

 

[Paul__Macca]

What do you want to do with the people who have lost family members, Paul?

I'd like to see the people who lived in Grenfell legitimately to be rehoused

 

[editor]

I'd like to see the people who lived there legitimately to be rehoused.

So what about those people who were subletting in (quite probably) shit conditions and who lost family members through this easily avoided disaster brought on by cost cutting politics? What about them? Where should they go?

 

[maomao]

So... you want illegal immigrants to be rehoused FOC from the crowdfund dough?

Not at all. I want the council to pay for the rehousing.

 

[andysays]

So... you want illegal immigrants to be rehoused FOC from the crowdfund dough?

I did't actually said that, did I, I simply suggested that story was worth reading (to illustrate the sort of reason why there may have been some unofficial/undocumented people living in Grenfell Tower).

But (unlike yourself it seems) I would have absolutely no problem with people like Rhea being helped in whatever way necessary, including being able to resolve her immigration status and being permanently rehoused if that's what she wants.

 

[Pac man]

Hi all,

There could be some (more) sub-letting going on but the make up of the people living there suggests that in my opinion, there probably wasn't much of it.

0 deaths from Floors 1-9.
4 dead/presumed dead, floors 10-13.
11 dead/presumed dead, floors 10- 16.
65 dead/presumed dead, floors 17-23.

We're missing any information for 12 flats, but 10 of those are from floors 1-9, where we have 0 deaths. The other two are on floors 14 and 15 and whilst it's possible people died in those flats and we simply don't know about it it would seem a little unlikely, at least at the moment.

.

It would help if these figures were published, to quell the fears that there were hundreds more people that died.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Newsnight, 12/07/2017

Four weeks after Grenfell, Newsnight finds the first evidence of cyanide poisoning among survivors. Plus why do so many not believe the official number of dead?

 

[BemusedbyLife]

Newsnight, 12/07/2017

Four weeks after Grenfell, Newsnight finds the first evidence of cyanide poisoning among survivors. Plus why do so many not believe the official number of dead?

I would sugggest that it is because the council continues to mishandle communication with the survivors and they are undeniably peeved about it, many have probably suspected they're viewed as nobodies for years but having it rubbed in your face is probably a bit galling.
There is absolutely no reason at all anyone would try and conceal the number of casualties, there isn't some magic number over which the number of dead becomes more serious. It's OK only 80 poors have died so we can just forget it? but 200 will require someone to get a stern talking too?

 

[Treacle Toes]

It's worth a watch btw...it explores a lot of the evidence and rumours etc. Moving/interesting interviews with survivors, local residents and relatives also.

 

[Lurdan]

Lot of detail about the cyanide issue

Grenfell survivor was diagnosed with cyanide poisoning - BBC

Back on the 23rd June Public Health England issued a press release attempting to reassure the public about the toxicity of the smoke from the fire

Our advice is that the wider risk to people’s physical health as a result of the fire, beyond those directly affected, is low.

(...)

We know that bound asbestos, contained in building materials such as plaster or fibre board, was present in Grenfell Tower in ceilings and header panels inside airing cupboards. It is possible that very small amounts of asbestos fibres will have been dispersed within the smoke plume but would have formed only a small fraction of the smoke and particles released in the fire; all smoke is toxic and any asbestos would present a minimal additional risk to health.

Asbestos related diseases are typically associated with a long term workplace exposure to high levels of airborne asbestos fibres.

In a Guardian story yesterday about the search of the building

Now 12 disaster identification officers are working with 24 search-trained officers and six archaeologists to sift through the estimated 15-and-a-half tonnes of rubble on each floor of the 24-storey tower block to find victims’ remains.

They wear layers of protective clothing and respiratory equipment because of asbestos in the building as they carry out their meticulous search.

 

[Lurdan]

And in todays episode of "If only they'd given us clear guidance" :

Grenfell Tower: building control warned about refit insulation plan - Guardian

Building safety experts had warned in 2014 that the insulation planned for use on Grenfell Tower – which was installed and which fuelled the fatal fire in June – should only be used with non-combustible cladding.

The Guardian has seen a formal certificate issued by the building inspectors organisation, Local Authority Building Control, stating that the insulation chosen for the £10m tower refit was acceptable for use on tall buildings only if used with non-combustible cladding panels.

But at Grenfell Tower combustible polyethylene filled panels were installed on top of synthetic insulation. The insulation, known as Celotex RS5000, was made from polyisocyanurate, which burns when exposed to heat and gives off toxic cyanide fumes.

(...)

The experts’ certificate will increase concern over why the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea’s building control team certified the building work on Grenfell Tower as complying “with the relevant provisions”. There were 16 site visits by council building inspectors from August 2014 to July 2016.

(...)

It has also emerged that a second combustible insulation material was used. Kingspan said one of its products was used “as part of a combination for which it was not designed and which Kingspan would never recommend”.

It said the material, a phenolic insulation called Kooltherm, had never been tested with polyethylene core aluminium panels and that the company “would be very surprised if such a system ... would ever pass the appropriate British Standard 8414 large-scale test”.

According to Kooltherm’s LABC certificate, phenolic products “do not meet the limited combustibility requirements” of building regulations guidance.

(...)

The certificate is one of a series produced by LABC, a membership organisation for all building control departments in England and Wales. The certificates are developed by a system of peer review and are routinely used by building control officers to help them determine whether proposed systems meet building regulations.

The certificate does not mean that building regulations can never be met using Celotex RS5000, but makes clear that testing to British Standard had been done in combination with specific non-combustible products.

 

[Nylock]

So what about those people who were subletting in (quite probably) shit conditions and who lost family members through this easily avoided disaster brought on by cost cutting politics? What about them? Where should they go?

*Digs out right-wing-trope bingo card and awaits response*

 

[Paul__Macca]

So what about those people who were subletting in (quite probably) shit conditions and who lost family members through this easily avoided disaster brought on by cost cutting politics? What about them? Where should they go?

That's a bunch of presumptuous nonsense.

*Digs out right-wing-trope bingo card and awaits response*

Funny.

 

[DaveCinzano]

You know it's serious when American shareholder start lobbing lawsuits around:

NEW YORK (Reuters) - A shareholder of Arconic Inc (ARNC.N) on Thursday filed a lawsuit accusing the company of defrauding shareholders over its supply of cladding panels used at Grenfell Tower, the London high-rise where at least 80 people died in a fire last month.

In his proposed class-action complaint, Michael Brave is seeking to recoup "significant" shareholder losses stemming from Arconic's failure prior to the June 14 blaze to properly disclose its use of "highly flammable" Reynobond PE panels [...]

Arconic sued in United States over fatal London tower fire

 

[xenon]

That's a bunch of presumptuous nonsense.



Funny.

What do you reckon should happen to the people that may have been subletting, crashing on a couch? FOC is irrelevant. They will still be paying rent, but are rehoused.

 

[Paul__Macca]

What do you reckon should happen to the people that may have been subletting, crashing on a couch? FOC is irrelevant. They will still be paying rent, but are rehoused.

Everyone should have a place to live.

But whatever happened to paying for your keep? I'm hearing a lot about crashers, subletters, family, friends, visitors. I'm not hearing a lot about people losing everything they've worked for.

You think that couch crashers deserve to be automatically given somewhere FOC to live because the last one they happened to be dossing in was razed?

 

[editor]

That's a bunch of presumptuous nonsense.
Funny.

Are you going to answer the question or is it too difficult for you to give a straight answer?

 

[editor]

Everyone should have a place to live.

But whatever happened to paying for your keep? I'm hearing a lot about crashers, subletters, family, friends, visitors. I'm not hearing a lot about people losing everything they've worked for.

You think that couch crashers deserve to be automatically given somewhere FOC to live because the last one they happened to be dossing in was razed?

Who are these "couch crashers"? What evidence do you have that they were not paying rent? Please produce it. Thanks.

 

[squirrelp]

Everyone should have a place to live.

But whatever happened to paying for your keep? I'm hearing a lot about crashers, subletters, family, friends, visitors. I'm not hearing a lot about people losing everything they've worked for.

You think that couch crashers deserve to be automatically given somewhere FOC to live because the last one they happened to be dossing in was razed?

I think you already answered your own question.

Everybody should have a place to live!

We don't want homeless people. If that means they have to live somewhere basic free of charge or paid for so be it. If the place they are staying in burns down, then let's find them another one.

 

[Paul__Macca]

Are you going to answer the question or is it too difficult for you to give a straight answer?

Which question? The one about subletters? Subletting is normally outlawed. And if you live in an outlawed society, you must accept cowboy rules. UNFORTUNATELY.

 

[Paul__Macca]

Who are these "couch crashers"? What evidence do you have that they were not paying rent? Please produce it. Thanks.

I don't know. I was just responding to xenon. Crashers hadn't even entered my head until then.

What do you reckon should happen to the people that may have been subletting, crashing on a couch? FOC is irrelevant. They will still be paying rent, but are rehoused.

 

[Nylock]

That's a bunch of presumptuous nonsense.



Funny.

....and yet, here we are:

Everyone should have a place to live.

But whatever happened to paying for your keep? I'm hearing a lot about crashers, subletters, family, friends, visitors. I'm not hearing a lot about people losing everything they've worked for.

You think that couch crashers deserve to be automatically given somewhere FOC to live because the last one they happened to be dossing in was razed?

Which question? The one about subletters? Subletting is normally outlawed. And if you live in an outlawed society, you must accept cowboy rules. UNFORTUNATELY.

 

[Paul__Macca]

I think you already answered your own question.

Everybody should have a place to live!

We don't want homeless people. If that means they have to live somewhere basic free of charge or paid for so be it. If the place they are staying in burns down, then let's find them another one.

....and yet, here we are:

?