DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
best kept a the lodge then etc etc
Grenfell Tower fire in North Kensington - news and discussion
- Thread starter JTG
- Start date
Treacle Toes
Time
Meanwhile other meetings be like...
DaveCinzano
WATCH OUT, GEORGE, HE'S GOT A SCREWDRIVER!
Looks to be a big story in the Times tomorrow (not up on website yet) claiming the council changed the original specs, downgrading from flameproof cladding to lower costs:
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Any idea who the guy complaining is?
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
for fucks sake!!
bonkers but can see where it comes from having seen some of these cttees in action
they always get scared when the public and press get involved even though they make all the right noises about scrutiny, transparency and participation, pathetic
bonkers but can see where it comes from having seen some of these cttees in action
they always get scared when the public and press get involved even though they make all the right noises about scrutiny, transparency and participation, pathetic
Treacle Toes
Time
No I don't. Please let me know if you find out.
Casual Observer
enough
Cllr J. Robert Atkinson (Labour)
DaveCinzano
WATCH OUT, GEORGE, HE'S GOT A SCREWDRIVER!
I think that's the Labour group leader, Cllr Robert Atkinson.
There's another video from the ‘meeting’ which goes on longer at the end, and there are a few more people in the audience towards the front who speak, and I'm pretty sure they're also Labour councillors (Robert Thompson, Monica Press and Beinazir Lasharie); the Tory backbenchers seem to be sat further to the rear of the room.
See:
RBKC Councillors
DaveCinzano
WATCH OUT, GEORGE, HE'S GOT A SCREWDRIVER!
Nimble fingers!
Casual Observer
enough
And here he is outside 5 minutes later...
free spirit
more tea vicar?
Theresa May just lied in the commons while trying to make this non-party political.
She alleged that cladding of tower blocks began under Tony Blair, yet there was a 1999 parliamentary inquiry into cladding fires on tower blocks that identified these fires amongst others that had already occurred well before Tony Blair was in power.
This began under a Tory government.
She alleged that cladding of tower blocks began under Tony Blair, yet there was a 1999 parliamentary inquiry into cladding fires on tower blocks that identified these fires amongst others that had already occurred well before Tony Blair was in power.
This began under a Tory government.
Grenfell Tower: Cladding 'changed to cheaper version' - BBC News
No wonder the council leader didn't want the press at the meeting.
No wonder the council leader didn't want the press at the meeting.
cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
Watched this report on the news this morning, what I don't get is this line - "Both types of cladding have the same fire official rating."
Dogsauce
I’ve got Skol but I’m not a Scholar
They're rated the same, so the decision wasn't made to knowingly substitute a a product of a lesser grade, it would have met the same criteria for fire performance. This doesn't mean that it was of the same flammability, just that both (according to official tests) met a particular standard - although it turns out the original proposed material would have performed better. I doubt it was considered any further than meeting the same specification
Still, this phrase in the BBC report is a fairly damning indictment of austerity:
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
You said '...that personal criticising judges because you don't like the law they interpret makes you level with the daily mail.'
So in a very brief post you managed to get two things wrong. Firstly it wasn't the law that was being disliked (which is what your post actually says), it was specifically the interpretation that was being objected to. Secondly objecting to a judge's particular interpretation (an objection unanimously endorsed by the supreme court) doesn't place an individual on an internet forum 'on a level' with a national newspaper, a pro-tory national news paper with huge international reach.
It's not so much which bits you got wrong as you got nothing right.
Cheers - Louis MacNeice
teuchter
je suis teuchter
Aluminium cladding is cheaper than zinc.
I don't believe the change of face material from aluminium to zinc is relevant to fire resistance (might be wrong though).
In fact zinc melts at a lower temperature than aluminium. However, the original panels may have had some kind of zinc alloy.
What's relevant is the core material. The question is whether the originally specified zinc panels had a more fire resistant core.
I don't believe the change of face material from aluminium to zinc is relevant to fire resistance (might be wrong though).
In fact zinc melts at a lower temperature than aluminium. However, the original panels may have had some kind of zinc alloy.
What's relevant is the core material. The question is whether the originally specified zinc panels had a more fire resistant core.
cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
That's what I was thinking, if you are offered 2 versions of cladding & told they are both as safe as each other, but one will save you about £300k, logically the cheaper option is going to get chosen.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
The question for me is more how it is possible for a - presumably - somewhat carefully arrived-at specification for materials can be almost summarily changed purely to save some money and by simply making some kind of equivalence on the basis of a standard, rather than going back and looking at the previous decisions that were made in regard to the original material, and questioning where any impact of the revised choice might fall. "Regression testing", if you will...
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
wrt the council's excuse for stopping the meeting yesterday saying it would prejudice the inquiry, Wondering whether the council meeting and minutes could have informed/been used by the inquiry if considered appropriate?
obviously the council and senior officers/cabinet are arse covering and dodging it as far as possible but how valid (or rather legal) is their excuse?
obviously the council and senior officers/cabinet are arse covering and dodging it as far as possible but how valid (or rather legal) is their excuse?
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
But if both types of panel had the same fire rating, that's not where the blame lies.
At the moment the fault seems to be with the testing and safety standards.
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bluescreen
tofu eating wokerati
If they are finding any of that a problem then they might finally realise that they should resign.
19force8
For the avoidance of faith
I can understand the council wanting to lock the public out of their meetings - they're obviously terrified [with good reason].
But for the TMO to lock traumatised kids out of after school art therapy classes beggars belief. I don't think it would be possible to imagine a clearer demonstration of contempt for the people they should be serving.
Cid
Proper break this time
Plans inevitably change from those submitted for permission. You just need to get permission for that change, and/or building regs approval. And why would you go beyond that? if something is rated as safe by building regs, and passes an inspection you're not unjustified in thinking it's suitable... The problem is that we're looking at this in hindsight; Grenfell has massively highlighted incidents of fire related to this particular material. And we don't know what combination of factors lead to the fire spreading so quickly. In essence it's entirely reasonable to look at two products with the same fire rating but a cost difference of £300k and go for the cheaper one. There may be factors at play that run deeper than that, but that surface decision is difficult to criticise. The question beyond that is why was the non-fr product chosen, for a saving of only £5k (assuming that's correct).
19force8
For the avoidance of faith
I don't know if this is relevant, but I saw on tv the other night a report saying that the original testing process involved putting cladding on a test structure and setting fire to it to see how it performed. This was later stopped and manufacturers merely required to provide proof they had followed procedures. [or some such - I'll try to find the report and link to it]
teuchter
je suis teuchter
We have at present absolutely no idea whether this is what happened or not.
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