Grenfell Tower fire in North Kensington - news and discussion

[David Clapson]

How can you possibly find out who was sharing flats on the quiet? Neighbours don't know. You don't tell the neighbours because they're the first ones to snitch to the council and the tax man. Your figure of 78 could be out by several hundred and you wouldn't have a clue!

 

[salem]

I can accept there might be some people who were staying there under the radar. However the idea that there are 'several hundred' is nonsense and I find it quite perverse that some people seem keen for a higher death toll.

 

[David Clapson]

Just do the maths and make some friends who are sharing a 2 bed flat between 6 or a 3 bed flat between 8. And perhaps consider that you just might be a tiny bit naive.

 

[weltweit]

Any further news on the appliance that apparently was the start of it all?

As I understand it that particular model had never been the subject of any safety recalls.

 

[Reiabuzz]

For fuck's sake:




Fire risk assessor for Grenfell Tower revealed

Maybe not the best idea to have his mobile number all over his site

Carl Stokes — Fire Safety Consultant

 

[David Clapson]

Any further news on the appliance that apparently was the start of it all?

As I understand it that particular model had never been the subject of any safety recalls.

Fridges catch fire. There are fridge fires every day.

Hotpoint and their owners, Whirlpool, don't have a stellar record. ISTR Whirlpool have been in a class action just recently because of driers catching fire? You can look it up. I've got to go...

 

[bi0boy]

Just do the maths and make some friends who are sharing a 2 bed flat between 6 or a 3 bed flat between 8. And perhaps consider that you just might be a tiny bit naive.

There weren't any three-bed flats in the block. Police have spoken to people from 106 of the flats leaving 23 flats where they haven't made contact with any occupiers.

The idea there are several hundred people missing is ridiculous. For example, how many residents and others have come forward with accounts of massive over-occupancy in the 1 and 2 bed flats in which their neighbours lived? Where are the "there were 8 people living in the flat upstairs and they're all missing" claims?

 

[Barking_Mad]

There weren't any three-bed flats in the block. Police have spoken to people from 106 of the flats leaving 23 flats where they haven't made contact with any occupiers.

The idea there are several hundred people missing is ridiculous. For example, how many residents and others have come forward with accounts of massive over-occupancy in the 1 and 2 bed flats in which their neighbours lived? Where are the "there were 8 people living in the flat upstairs and they're all missing" claims?

According to figures we have Floor 3 had 1 three-bed flat and 3 four-bed flats.

 

[xenon]

According to figures we have Floor 3 had 1 three-bed flat and 3 four-bed flats.

The fire started on the fourth floor. I think I read everyone from the first four floors got out.

In any case, if there were this massive ove occupation. You'd expect to see such occupants numbered amongst the survivors too.

 

[Barking_Mad]

The fire started on the fourth floor. I think I read everyone from the first four floors got out.

In any case, if there were this massive ove occupation. You'd expect to see such occupants numbered amongst the survivors too.

I was just responding to the comments that there weren't any 3 or 4 bed floats, there were some. Our information shows that was far as we know, nobody below the 10th floor died.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Just do the maths and make some friends who are sharing a 2 bed flat between 6 or a 3 bed flat between 8. And perhaps consider that you just might be a tiny bit naive.

For the flats we have figures for the information shows just 2 flats with 6 people in, and 6 flats with 5 people in. The rest were below those two amounts.

One resident we spoke to said that no residents she had spoken to had any reason to believe that before the fire they were aware of any flat with 40 odd people in it, as had been claimed by one person.

 

[Barking_Mad]

btw, there's a couple of oddities with the numbers we have, and it's possible that the numbers could rise much higher because of that - whether the police and fire service are aware of more deaths is something only they can answer. That said those numbers so far are imo a fair reflection of what is currently known in the media and amongst some residents. I see some reports suggest that people might have moved up the building to escape the fire. That's certainly possible given the oddities in the figures, but will have to see.

 

[Pickman's model]

Just do the maths and make some friends who are sharing a 2 bed flat between 6 or a 3 bed flat between 8. And perhaps consider that you just might be a tiny bit naive.

And how does that account for people who had the misfortune to be visiting grenfell tower then?

 

[Pac man]

It is unlikely that all the survivor's will be applying for rehousing. Some will be afriad to come forward for one reason or another, and others will have juat sorted something out themselves rather than waiting.

From the Guardian.."Sajad Jamalvatan, a biomedical engineering student who lived on the third floor of the block, has established a Whatsapp community of 86 families who escaped from the block, calling the group Grenfell United."

It seems odd why they wont say how many survivors "have" come forward..

 

[Barking_Mad]

Apparently there were rubbish chutes on each floor that were fireproofed in case of disposal of hazardous waste. And those were found without much smoke damage, but it goes without saying that none of the residents had known or thought to take refuge there.

 

[SpookyFrank]

For fuck's sake:




Fire risk assessor for Grenfell Tower revealed

We've had fire assessors in where I work and we've had to change companies a couple of times because we've used people who, while cheap, clearly didn't give a fuck. It felt very much like we were paying for a piece of paperwork we were required to have, rather than for an actual assessment.

TBH our own records of alarm testing, risk assesments etc were sloppy to non-existent and any decent professional would have refused to sign us off until we had that stuff in order.

 

[teuchter]

Really confused interview with David Orr from the National Housing Federation on Newsnight tonight.

He was saying that all housing with "cladding" should have it taken off, even if it's safe, or something. I don't actually know what he was trying to say.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Grenfell Tower inquiry to be led by retired judge Sir Martin Moore-Bick

 

[teqniq]

Establishment though and through from a cursory glance.

 

[ddraig]

This Sat

Greensleeves Grenfell Tower fundraiser

From it’s birth in 1975 Greensleeves Records has always had it’s home in West London. It seems only fitting that all money raised at the next official Greensleeves Record club night goes to the Grenfell Tower Fire Relief fund.

Please come and support. Saturday 1st July (7pm-1am).
at The Social, 5 Little Portland St, London W1
Entry by donation - all money raised goes to the Grenfell Tower Fire Relief Fund.

DJs Keith Lawrence (Mi-Soul/Dub Organiser) Champian & Mistah Brown (Tighten Up) and Oxman (Dub Vendor/Soho Radio).

 

[sheothebudworths]

For the flats we have figures for the information shows just 2 flats with 6 people in, and 6 flats with 5 people in. The rest were below those two amounts.

One resident we spoke to said that no residents she had spoken to had any reason to believe that before the fire they were aware of any flat with 40 odd people in it, as had been claimed by one person.

btw, there's a couple of oddities with the numbers we have, and it's possible that the numbers could rise much higher because of that - whether the police and fire service are aware of more deaths is something only they can answer. That said those numbers so far are imo a fair reflection of what is currently known in the media and amongst some residents. I see some reports suggest that people might have moved up the building to escape the fire. That's certainly possible given the oddities in the figures, but will have to see.

Bless you for doing this work Barking_Mad
Looks to me that the suggestion has been that it was a large number of people who ended up in one flat, during the fire, rather than it being occupied by 40 prior to it, but I get why you'd clarify when that's been reported.
It's monumentally distressing to hear even the very first official reports back identifying parents and children (both young and grown) being found on different floors.

Apparently there were rubbish chutes on each floor that were fireproofed in case of disposal of hazardous waste. And those were found without much smoke damage, but it goes without saying that none of the residents had known or thought to take refuge there.

 

[sheothebudworths]

Grenfell Tower inquiry to be led by retired judge Sir Martin Moore-Bick

Apart from all the other dodgy rulings he's made, this is quite unsurprising...

In his commercial work and at the appeal court, Moore-Bick dealt with some housing cases although his main area of expertise was to do with contracts, insurance and banking.

Who (/how/why) decides which judge should be appointed? I mean I get it's a fit up, a judge appointed to serve a purpose, but what's the process they base it on (to explain it away, sorta thing)? I read something earlier about the residents rightly demanding that they have input into who will oversee the enquiry. Obviously that's going to be made difficult but is there any existing legal way for them to challenge it?

 

[Treacle Toes]

Feeling punchy about it all tbh sheothebudworths ... I'm sick of them expecting us all to play at being too stupid to understand what is going on. :/

 

[sheothebudworths]

Feeling punchy about it all tbh sheothebudworths ... I'm sick of them expecting us all to play at being too stupid to understand what is going on. :/

Yes, me too. It doesn't seem to be what's happening for once, that it's quietly going away, that that will be allowed, but there's no joy to be taken from that either of course.

 

[sheothebudworths]

Having said that, I know that'll be the object ultimately, too, to sink it under other news. My own observation was that it was genuinely felt by people who may not normally have paid much attention but I'm not sure whether that's stuck now, or if it just feels like it has because it is still *in the news*.

 

[Pac man]

Read the thread, or even some of the links on this page. It's been examined several times on the thread.

Ive folllwed the thread from the start and read most links, nowhere is there a suggestion of how many people survived, or how many are being re housed, or just a general figure of how many registered survivors there are. Neither is there any official tennans list from the council to say how many people were officially living at grenfell, im not talking about squatters, friends or sublets. Just an official tennants list and how many survivors, this should be all over the msm but they refuse to release the number of survivors that have come forward...why?

 

[Pac man]

Grenfell Tower inquiry to be led by retired judge Sir Martin Moore-Bick

Reminds me of the child abuse enquiry, butler sloss et al. i wonder how much time he will waste before stepping down, to allow another time waster in..

 

[BigTom]

Apart from all the other dodgy rulings he's made, this is quite unsurprising...



Who (/how/why) decides which judge should be appointed? I mean I get it's a fit up, a judge appointed to serve a purpose, but what's the process they base it on (to explain it away, sorta thing)? I read something earlier about the residents rightly demanding that they have input into who will oversee the enquiry. Obviously that's going to be made difficult but is there any existing legal way for them to challenge it?

Afaik the prime minister or relevant minister that called the inquiry simply appoints someone to it. There is probably a parliamentary procedure to object in case of conflicts of interest but often people just declare their conflicts of interest and then chain that's all fine and not a problem as it's been declared.
I'm not sure though, 20 year old half remembered a level politics knowledge.

 

[teqniq]

More on Martin Moore-Bick

...However, his appointment is likely to cause controversy after it emerged he had presided over an appeal court case in 2014 that ruled in favour of Westminster council, which had argued that a single mother with five children could be rehoused outside of London.

Titina Nzolameso’s lawyer said at the time that the decision "sets a terrible precedent for local authorities to engage in social cleansing of the poor on a mass scale”.

"It cannot be right that council tenants are threatened with homelessness unless they agree to uproot themselves from communities they have lived in for years," Jayesh Kunwardia, of Hodge Jones & Allen, said.

The ruling was subsequently overturned by the Supreme Court....

 

[alex_]

More on Martin Moore-Bick

Criticising judges because you don't like the law they interpret is exactly what revolted people about this headline

Fury over High Court judges who defied Brexit voters and could trigger constitutional crisis | Daily Mail Online

"Enemies of the people" so you don't have to click through.

Alex