Grenfell Tower fire in North Kensington - news and discussion

[squirrelp]

yeh. that being the case, why is that of the many demonstrations which process along whitehall so very few of them actually achieve their objective? campaigns aren't won on demonstrations, squirrelp.

BBC ON THIS DAY | 31 | 1990: Violence flares in poll tax demonstration

That was the end of Thatcher.

This could be the end of Thatcherism.

 

[Pickman's model]

BBC ON THIS DAY | 31 | 1990: Violence flares in poll tax demonstration

yes, i am familiar with the poll tax riot, i was there.

what's your point, caller?

 

[Pickman's model]

BBC ON THIS DAY | 31 | 1990: Violence flares in poll tax demonstration

That was the end of Thatcher.

This could be the end of Thatcherism.

oho you've edited.

the poll tax was the end of thatcher. the poll tax riot was not the end of thatcher.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Meanwhile...

Anger sparked after Grenfell Tower fundraiser is axed following venue's objection to bashment music - NME

The general manager's racism is worth a £2000 donation to the Red cross apparently.

 

[Spymaster]

Meanwhile...

Anger sparked after Grenfell Tower fundraiser is axed following venue's objection to bashment music - NME

You mean RACIST too right?

Seems like just a racist dickhead General Manager. The owners seem ok:

“The management team of Miroma Leisure, owners of Trapeze, are undertaking a full investigation of the matter and will take ‘affirmative action’ following the outcome. We have spoken with the promoters and offered them another date of their choice and offered to ‘double’ the money raised on the night for Grenfell as a gesture of goodwill.”
Read more at Anger sparked after Grenfell Tower fundraiser is axed following venue's objection to bashment music - NME

 

[Treacle Toes]

Seems like just a racist dickhead General Manager. The owners seem ok:

Pffft. Damage limitation.

 

[Spymaster]

Pffft. Damage limitation.

Well yes, but what else could they do? The bloke's a knob.

 

[J Ed]

Seems like just a racist dickhead General Manager. The owners seem ok:

Are they ok? They could well be racist as well but realise what bad PR the whole thing is, in a sense it doesn't matter. The whole thing is disgusting, especially when you think about the fact that residents reported racism as a component in why they were not listened to.

 

[agricola]

oho you've edited.

the poll tax was the end of thatcher. the poll tax riot was not the end of thatcher.

is this a call for tea at the Ritz?

 

[squirrelp]

oho you've edited.

the poll tax was the end of thatcher. the poll tax riot was not the end of thatcher.

The edit was within 30 seconds, without seeing your post. I think the point is a pretty obvious one, tbh. The poll tax riot was the end of the poll tax. Spontaneous mass demonstrations are a big deal. A decent sized one would blow May over. This is precisely a scenario which could have produced something fairly big.

 

[butchersapron]

The edit was within 30 seconds, without seeing your post. I think the point is a pretty obvious one, tbh. The poll tax riot was the end of the poll tax. Spontaneous mass demonstrations are a big deal. A decent sized one would blow May over. This is precisely a scenario which could have produced something fairly big.

The poll tax demonstration that ended in a riot in london was anything but spontaneous - and there isn't going to be anything happening that isn't already happening by adding a hundred to the official figures.

 

[squirrelp]

oho you've edited.

the poll tax was the end of thatcher. the poll tax riot was not the end of thatcher.

That is not my recollection. From wikipedia (doubtless, there are better sources)

Prime Minister Thatcher was at a conference of the Conservative Party Council in Cheltenham. The poll tax was the focus of the conference; as coverage of the demonstrations unfolded, speculation developed for the first time about Thatcher's position as leader.

Consequences[edit]
Fall of Thatcher[edit]
The riot in central London did much to contribute to the downfall of Margaret Thatcher, who resigned as Prime Minister on 28 November the same year. The national opposition to the poll tax (especially vehement in the North of England and Scotland) was the major factor; an opinion poll had found 78% opposed to it.[13] John Major, who succeeded Thatcher, announced that the tax would be abolished.

Poll tax riots - Wikipedia

 

[squirrelp]

The poll tax demonstration that ended in a riot in london was anything but spontaneous

You can't apply for a riot

 

[butchersapron]

You can't apply for a riot

You can spend a year plus organising the conditions for it to happen. And many of us did.

 

[cupid_stunt]

You can't apply for a riot

If you want to discuss history, in respect of the poll tax & the associated demos & riots, please start a new thread & stop derailing this one, out of respect for the Grenfell victims & most people following this thread.

Thanks in advance.

 

[squirrelp]

You can spend a year plus organising the conditions for it to happen. And many of us did.

The point is, mass demonstrations outside Downing St can and do have political impact. If public order starts falling apart that can be a very big deal.
If the death toll is indeed hundreds, and an accurate estimate was released in the day after the event, there would have been a real prospect of a poll tax riot situation. As it was there was a spontaneous demonstration which produced disorder in Kensington Town Hall, that was on a reported death toll of less than 20.

 

[Teaboy]

I think everyone was aware that the death toll was going to be a lot higher than 20 just as everyone is aware that its going to rise still.

 

[squirrelp]

I think everyone was aware that the death toll was going to be a lot higher than 20 just as everyone is aware that its going to rise still.

Well frankly, no, that's not correct. Higher than the 17 or so, but not 150+. People rely on information from authority in these situations. It was 'conspiracy theory' to suggest that the death toll was being kept low in the days after the event:

Death toll cover-ups, media blackouts and D-notices - the truth about the Grenfell conspiracy theories

 

[Teaboy]

Well frankly, no, that's not correct. Higher than the 17 or so, but not 150+. People rely on information from authority in these situations. It was 'conspiracy theory' to suggest that the death toll was being kept low in the days after the event:

Death toll cover-ups, media blackouts and D-notices - the truth about the Grenfell conspiracy theories

Odd response. You can refer back to the first few pages of this thread if you want. The size of the block with the amount of homes in it combined with the ferocity of the fire and the limited ability for the fire service to fight it all clearly added up to a big death toll.

 

[Pickman's model]

The edit was within 30 seconds, without seeing your post. I think the point is a pretty obvious one, tbh. The poll tax riot was the end of the poll tax. Spontaneous mass demonstrations are a big deal. A decent sized one would blow May over. This is precisely a scenario which could have produced something fairly big.

no, the end of the poll tax was caused not by the riot but by the extent of non-payment. the end of the poll tax was announced in 1991 when bills were lowered by £140 (£136 in the case of wandsworth): while it would be good if the riots had ended the poll tax the simple fact of the matter is that mass working class action dealt the tax a knock-out blow.

as someone who was at all the national poll tax marches and active in haringey and camden throughout the poll tax, i think i might know something more of what went on than you do, being as you seem to be getting your information very much second - and perhaps third - hand.

anyway, that's ancient history, and we're meant to be talking of the murder of those killed in grenfell tower.

 

[squirrelp]

Odd response. You can refer back to the first few pages of this thread if you want. The size of the block with the amount of homes in it combined with the ferocity of the fire and the limited ability for the fire service to fight it all clearly added up to a big death toll.

Which is precisely the point. There was no announcement as such from the emergency services reflected in the news reports, as one would expect to be the case.

 

[squirrelp]

no, the end of the poll tax was caused not by the riot but by the extent of non-payment. the end of the poll tax was announced in 1991 when bills were lowered by £140 (£136 in the case of wandsworth)

Thatcher quit in November 1990.

 

[Pickman's model]

Which is precisely the point. There was no announcement as such from the emergency services reflected in the news reports, as one would expect to be the case.

please get off your hobby horse about this. you can't know at any one time how many people are in houses on e.g. camden's queens crescent or westminster's elgin avenue or lambeth's coldharbour lane. similarly, you can't be sure how many people were in grenfell tower as it burned. given the extent and ferocity of the fire it's quite possible not so much remained of some bodies. what do you want, guesswork?

 

[cupid_stunt]

Thatcher quit in November 1990.

Thatcher didn't quit, she was forced out.

Having asked politely & been ignored, fuck off you loon.

 

[Pickman's model]

Thatcher quit in November 1990.

oh fuck off

 

[Teaboy]

Which is precisely the point. There was no announcement as such from the emergency services reflected in the news reports, as one would expect to be the case.

I wouldn't expect the emergency services to speculate, I would expect them to get on with the job at hand and deal in facts that are known. Any other approach would be unprofessional.

 

[MAD-T-REX]

It was 'conspiracy theory' to suggest that the death toll was being kept low in the days after the event:

It's still a conspiracy theory.

Adding someone to an official death toll (even if their identity is unknown) is a controlled process to avoid fuck ups. During the Cumbria shootings, it took all day for an accurate figure to emerge and that was with a much smaller number of victims actually lying out on public roads.

The fire brigade were not just going to do a quick once over of the accessible parts of the building, which was on fire for more than a day remember, and blurt out a number. It wouldn't have helped anyone.

 

[butchersapron]

I wouldn't expect the emergency services to speculate, I would expect them to get on with the job at hand and deal in facts that are known. Any other approach would be unprofessional.

As if he'd believe the emergency service anyway. They're usually in on it in his world.

(and that is my last on this crap)

 

[equationgirl]

On the contrary, they care several hoots.

If they cared, the recommendations that came from the lakanal tower fire would have been implemented several years ago without questions or delays.

 

[existentialist]

I think it is more to do with maintaining public order and preventing mass demonstrations outside Downing Street before the queen officially invites May to form a government.

That isn't surprising.