Grenfell Tower fire in North Kensington - news and discussion

[Orang Utan]

It's a basic fire engineering issue involving a mix of building materials and installation techniques and regulations, for which virtually all the relevant information is in the public domain.

I think I mentioned earlier that my dad is a professor of combustion engineering who's taught fire engineering to a good proportion of the countries fire officers, and's working up a report on this. He's just not so good at scouring the internet to obtain info that's public domain, nor does he have experience on the installation side of things which some on this thread appear to have (and I do to a more limited extent).

If you're not interested in anything I post on this then feel free to not read it - use the ignore function if you want.

Leave it to the experts is one thing, but leave it to a politically stitched up public inquiry...... sorry, but I can't agree with that.

it doesn't matter how much your dad knows about stuff as you don't have access to all of the stuff you need to know.

 

[bi0boy]

Hmmm...



This figure includes residents from surrounding blocks too?

Why have the CoLC done this?

Also I fucking hate the ES...sensationalist, hate mongering wankers.

Sounds like the developer is selling the flats at "cost price"...perhaps they don't have enough buyers and there are some affordable housing quotas they would benefit from meeting or something

 

[bimble]

Sounds like the developer is selling the flats at "cost price"...perhaps they don't have enough buyers and there are some affordable housing quotas they would benefit from meeting or something

They'd have had to provide some percentage of social housing anyway to get their development approved.
I think its a bit sad that people seem determined to find something negative to say about what looks like the first bit of good news since Tuesday.

 

[not-bono-ever]

Cost price means different things to both parties. This is in no way any kind of philantrophy - there will be a cost, maybe not direct, but a cost to KC council/ UKG . Maintenance and support for these flats will have to be covered and areas like this can be the generator of income / savings for the developer.

 

[kabbes]

Other councils are not surprisingly in panic mode ,we are all heading out to visit estates and speak to residents to calm their fears .

How can you calm their fears when those fears may well be justified?

 

[not-bono-ever]

They'd have had to provide some percentage of social housing anyway to get their development approved.
I think its a bit sad that people seem determined to find something negative to say about what looks like the first bit of good news since Tuesday.

Do you really think this is a selfless act of generosity? of course not. there will be a trade off , maybe easing of PP for new developments or rezoning of other areas that were previously out of bounds.

 

[bimble]

Do you really think this has a selfless act of generosity?

I think your post above that says " this is in no way any kind of philanthropy' is based on nothing much. You're suggesting that they will make more money by selling at cost to the council for social housing tenants than by selling on the open market, i don't get why that would be true.

 

[equationgirl]

All this amateur armseat detective work is a bit distasteful, no?

I have no issue with properly sourced information, however there are so few known facts at the moment the constant theory chasing and posting without thinking by some is getting a bit wearing.

THe first hand videos by firefighters I personally find informative, although sobering. Those guys were incredibly brave, knowing what they were going to.

THe 'several reports say x' posts not actually quoting the sources feels a bit like hearsay.

This is not an academic exercise. We all want to know exactly what happened, but right now nobody does.

 

[Cid]

it doesn't matter how much your dad knows about stuff as you don't have access to all of the stuff you need to know.

Nor does the media, nor do those coming up with conspiracy theories... Let them dominate the narrative?

Nor for that matter do people trying to build a political response.

 

[not-bono-ever]

I can cure your gullibility for £100. PM me and I will send you my bank account details

 

[Corax]

A thought on Teaboy 's point on the fluting from earlier up thread... You can clearly see that in this picture (I'll put these in spoilers, but they're just the ones that are widely available, this one is after the fire, top of the building):

Spoiler

Having not see that pic before, I noticed one thing in particular. On the columns, there are indeed some horizontal lines where I'd expect fireblock to be installed to prevent the air gap acting as a chimney. However, the way the shadows are falling, particularly on the corner one, it looks very much as though these aren't solid blocks at all, but more joists of some sort.

Teaboy or free spirit or someone who knows more about this stuff - would you expect to be able to see the fireblocks on the ruin, or would they have disintegrated and/or fallen off?

And Orang Utan - I see nothing wrong with this discussion. People read newspaper reports about things that they will have no expertise in or involvement with all the time. They will ask themselves questions about them. They will talk to friends or colleagues. It's not tawdry or morbid, it's a desire to understand - a desire that's as integral to the human condition as eating or sleeping. If anything, a measured and balanced discussion such as this may in fact be a force for good, steering some readers away from conspiracy theories or cover-ups.

 

[killer b]

Sure I'd heard of some massive slowdown of the London property market recently, with developers struggling to shift flats. Reckon it's probably better to sell 'at cost' and have everyone think you're some kind of philanthropist than having them sit empty while you offer people cars to come and live there...

 

[bimble]

I can cure your gullibility for £100. PM me and I will send you my bank account details

What would you have liked to see offered to the survivors, what would have been the housing solution that would have satisfied you that it wasn't just a scam done for someone's self-interest?
I'm glad this has happened, sorry for being so dumb.

 

[killer b]

here: Buy a home, get a car free: offers galore as London estate agents struggle to sell

 

[bimble]

You people. Ok , its not good news, its just more shit. As you were.

 

[Cid]

Sure I'd heard of some massive slowdown of the London property market recently, with developers struggling to shift flats. Reckon it's probably better to sell 'at cost' and have everyone think you're some kind of philanthropist than having them sit empty while you offer people cars to come and live there...

I wonder whether it can offset against other affordable housing obligations in some way. And it does no harm to the image of the developer obviously.

Still, hope it works out.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Being cynical about developers potential self interest doesn't mean people aren't happy for residents getting rehoused at the same time. It's not an either or thing.

It's not negative to speculate like this about an industry and their decisions that we all know are usually capital and investment driven.

 

[not-bono-ever]

of course, the priority is getting people rehoused locally. Incredibly naïve to think that there is no benefit on this for the developer.

these scum have a long history of avoiding providing social housing commitments by all legal means at their disposal- this is well documented - look at the Heygate thread for examples of how they do this. I am happy people are being rehomed but Kapital does not give out freebies

 

[killer b]

You people. Ok , its not good news, its just more shit. As you were.

It's good news people are being rehoused. It's the genuflecting to the property developers you were doing people object to.

 

[bimble]

Yeah fair enough.
Seems these are poor door type situation flats, at least they're from the required 'affordable' part of the development, which may be the hardest to shift as not the full luxury package but still no doubt out of the reach of most people.

"The complex includes a 24-hour concierge, swimming pool, sauna and spa and private cinema. It is not yet clear if the Grenfell residents will have access to the facilities, which are normally not included for those in affordable housing.."

Grenfell Tower families to be rehoused in 68 apartments in luxury development

 

[Treacle Toes]

I really hate the ES. Hatemongering scum.

 

[mauvais]

Not that I have any sympathy, but the deal is not very good news for the developer. Publicity isn't worth very much, especially not here. Instead it makes plain their astonishing markup, will probably upset many existing clients, and for the same reason that they try and avoid affordable housing commitments in the first place, will make further selling of aspirational nonsense to upmarket clients much harder.

It is good news for the state/CoLC as they've got a bargain. Perhaps one day we'll find out how.

 

[gawkrodger]

It's even better news for Corbyn as May adopts his policy

 

[kabbes]

I can cure your gullibility for £100. PM me and I will send you my bank account details

I would like my gullibility cured. Let me know your bank account details. Sort code, account number, full name and name of bank will be just fine.

 

[not-bono-ever]

Do you need my PIN as well ?

 

[kabbes]

Do you need my PIN as well ?

Either that or mother's maiden name. I can work with either, your choice.

 

[not-bono-ever]

Its my first pets name. and For reason for security, I cannot tell you Princes name

 

[Barking_Mad]

Yeah fair enough.
Seems these are poor door type situation flats, at least they're from the required 'affordable' part of the development, which may be the hardest to shift as not the full luxury package but still no doubt out of the reach of most people.

"The complex includes a 24-hour concierge, swimming pool, sauna and spa and private cinema. It is not yet clear if the Grenfell residents will have access to the facilities, which are normally not included for those in affordable housing.."

Grenfell Tower families to be rehoused in 68 apartments in luxury development

Excellent news. Providing it's as it says on the tin.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Hmm...The CoL buying social housing stock in another borough and letting that borough manage the stock.

What benefit is there for them? Does this mean they can get away with having less SC stock in central London themselves and therefore fewer 'poor' people in their housing/borough? Does this add to/fulfil their own quotas in some way?

 

[Cold Harbour]

Hmm...The CoL buying social housing stock in another borough and letting that borough manage the stock.

What benefit is there for them? Does this mean they can get away with having less SC stock in central London themselves and therefore fewer 'poor' people in their housing/borough? Does this add to/fulfil their own quotas in some way?

The CoL don't build social housing in the City any more, developers of posh housing pay a levy to mitigate the expectatipn they will have a % of social housing. The levy is generally much smaller than you/I would like it to be. The details of recent examples are hidden in CoL Planning Committee Minutes.