Government floats bonkers idea of loosening lockdown in groups of ten people

[Clair De Lune]

I don't know you personally bmd. It's clear you've been through some personal struggles with mh. As have a lot of us.
I don't wish to carry on with discussions about this as I have my own shite to deal with right now. I made my comment to you because reading your words to epona, shocked me with their heartlessness. If someone says they are having suicidal thoughts, it's best to believe them I find.

You seem to have had a think about it, but have unfortunately then chosen to make a terrible, priti patel style apology. I'm sorry if I upset you but....

 

[SpookyFrank]

bmd pick a lane mate, was this a misguided but genuine attempt to help someone in distress or an overreaction to your own personal shit?

Either way, 'sorry, but...' is the format of an excuse, not an apology.

 

[kabbes]

FWIW, a Priti Patel apology would be “I’m sorry if you thought you were upset but...”

 

[Looby]

You also seem to have made the assumption bmd that those showing compassion for a poster translates to agreeing that the lockdown should be relaxed or that this 10 friends thing is a good idea in most cases.

I’m scared about relaxation of the lockdown and the pressure for this to happen before it’s safe.

I do think that we need to consider the very real and painful implications for some people and do what we can to mitigate those or provide support for that person.

 

[Athos]

It would be interesting to see some analysis of the number if deaths attributable to lockdown itself (essentially: excess deaths - (corona deaths + deaths of other things caused by reduced access to treatment e.g. postponed chemo, as a result of the virus)). There's lots of talk about needing to reduce lockdown to prevent e.g. suicides, but without the figures it's impossible to do any cost/benefit analysis (at the social level at which government must work, obviously every suicide is a tragedy).

 

[bmd]

bmd pick a lane mate, was this a misguided but genuine attempt to help someone in distress or an overreaction to your own personal shit?

Either way, 'sorry, but...' is the format of an excuse, not an apology.

It was neither. It was me thinking that someone was being selfish. All the rest was context. I don't think that poor mh gives anyone a pass unless they genuinely are disillusioned. And yes, I was sorry for the upset but yes, I do think that I had a point. Priti Patel made me smile though.

Anyway. I think it was a bad idea, coming back here. It was great to see it's still a vibrant community full of lovely people. It really was. Cheers!

 

[yield]

Don't think it was a bad idea, Bob. And I hope you stick around.

 

[two sheds]

Shame if you do go, but one of the best things about the community side of urban is that you can write freely and tell people what problems you're facing without being judged harshly. It's generally easy enough to make suggestions without making the person you're responding to feel worse.

 

[Treacle Toes]

The thing is (please don't ban me. I really am trying to give another pov. I know I'll catch some flack but this is a genuine post), I have been there to that country and learned its language, so I know a native when I see one. Butwhen whoever the fuck says all of that doesn't give me the right, to be a cunt to Epona they're right. I'm sorry if I upset you but I do think your stance would be murdered if not for your reason and I'll explain why I think it's not helpful to you to give you a pass. Pulling you up on it doesn't need to be like I did though, I get that. I honestly thought you were more robust than you are and were simply being selfish. We are on the COVID board. I guess it's another part of Nobbing and Sobbing? I just look at New Posts.

It's a funny thing, empathy. I think some people think it's just about rummaging about in another person's shoe cupboard, putting them on and saying to that person, "these are a bit uncomfortable! and offering them a foot rub. I don't and in my defence, I have never felt a benefit from it in terms of moving me forward. I get that there are a lot of people here who do. I get that but there is more than one pov with everything. And if you post on a public board, you're going to get them. Hopefully.

I did not do this alone, as in I was sectioned a couple of times, have a diagnosis off a couple of psychiatrists, went to challenging mh groups, had mad drugs, had sane drugs, had a good GP, had a lot of help from these very boards, my good friends etc etc. But really, I did do it alone. I do think that the way out of that terrible place is through yourself. Turning inward and going there. I do honestly believe that.

You can ban me now.

I'm glad you came back and apologised and fwiw I do think I understand your position. that said, taking someone to task doesn't work well for either person when one is experiencing a crisis IME. Sometimes we aren't in a place where we can offer the support that is needed in any particular moment, that's okay too but you were harsh and it's good you can acknowledge that.

 

[Cid]

Bill Hanage mentioned it on the Novora link LDC posted. Think he called it isopods or something?

E2a Bill Hanage is an Arsenal fan though so not sure how much he can be trusted?

E2a found it 30:35 and yes isopods. But he suggests it's for people who are considered to be low vulnerability.

For anyone who knows about crustaceans the phrase ‘my family is an isopod’ is beyond terrifying.

 

[Clair De Lune]

Fwiw I don't think anyone wants you to leave bmd

 

[kabbes]

I don’t really have a dog in the fight of who leaves. But I think it’s a bit rich to think you can speak your mind in whatever manner you want to anybody you want to and then, when you get response in kind, to get all huffy and take your ball home.

 

[sheothebudworths]

I have found my own reactions to this complicated and really hypocritical. There are huge health risks, physical and mental, and I think it's understandable that people will be coming at those from very different directions right now. I think we have to allow for some differences.

 

[8ball]

It’s an emotive issue, but I suspect we will find in time that this lockdown has killed more people than it has saved if it goes on much longer.

I think most of us will agree that relaxing it will have to be phased and evidence-based.

This “10 people” thing is bollocks, though, imo.

 

[Epona]

I want to be clear, I don't want anyone to leave - I think my meltdown (these things happen sometimes) was interpreted as more than it was - I am not one of those militia fuckwits in the US protesting about getting a haircut, I am not demanding anything or calling for anything. I am certainly not selfish - I am observing lockdown probably more strictly than is good for my mental health and probably more strictly than most and don't go out for days at a time (perhaps I should go out for a walk more often) - I just sometimes have a bad time with anxiety including massive issues with claustrophobia and have an ASD related meltdown, and it shouldn't really be interpreted as anything deeper than me running round in my own head going "Whaattt the Fuuuuuck" while crying a bit. What was going on was not some demand that lockdown has to be ended now. It was me being human and having an anxiety attack - please try to see it in that context.

Thanks to everyone who kind of got that and showed me some sympathy instead of telling me to kill myself (which is never an acceptable response tbh).

EDIT: I should add I am not trying to bring any disagreements back up, but I woke up earlier to a whole load of notification pings from this thread, I just want to let everyone know I am ok - I am ok 99% of the time and occasionally have a bit of an oh shit moment - and I'd prefer it if we could all move on like adults with some understanding and no grudges held rather than me waking up tomorrow to a whole new set of pings in my notifications folder - many thanks and love you all - even those I argue with sometimes

 

[Athos]

... I suspect we will find in time that this lockdown has killed more people than it has saved if it goes on much longer.

Given the large number of deaths with lockdown, it's likely that the number without would be massive. It's hard to see how lockdown has caused anything like that number. Do you have any data which supports the idea that the lockdown is causing a significant number if deaths? It seems a bit dangerous to propogate this idea without any evidence.

 

[girasol]

This bubble concept is used (created there too?) in New Zealand, from what I've seen from posts from a friend who lives there. Interesting how it's being shot down to pieces here, yet it was fully accepted and adhered to over there. I know it's a much smaller country - and unless you keep the bubble to immediate family, I don't see how it would work, if extended to friends, for example, or more distant family, the intersections would mean the "bubbles" would burst. So, how did it work there, but it seems it has no chance of working here, with people thinking it's a terrible idea? It also seems we have been on Level 3 lock down, according to this (except for the bubble thing, although for children who are co cared for, and are allowed to continue to be so, bubbles already exist for many families).

 

[Red Cat]

Given the large number of deaths with lockdown, it's likely that the number without would be massive. It's hard to see how lockdown has caused anything like that number. Do you have any data which supports the idea that the lockdown is causing a significant number if deaths? It seems a bit dangerous to propogate this idea without any evidence.

I agree. There are varied responses to lockdown, I find my mental state varies throughout the day, and we don't know how things will pan out for individuals or groups. There's a danger too in conceptualising all mental suffering as mental health difficulties or some other kind of medicalisation. Yes, there will be psychological consequences, there are always psychological consequences of living through something very difficult and painful. At the moment, we don't know what they are.

 

[Looby]

A really depressing thought for me is that I wouldn’t have a bubble. I don’t have close family, lots of close friends but they would naturally prioritise their families.
Because they’re close and have kids and need childcare and lots of other reasons.
That feels really lonely.

 

[bmd]

So, once more for the cause.

Firstly, unreservedly, Epona I am sorry for being so shit to you.

Secondly, let's all cringe together at my replies? Done? Good.

So here are my thoughts about this. They're not another excuse, they're me thinking about why I have become unempathic towards certain members of society. You were right Clair De Lune . I'm sure you don't need me to tell you that.

Climbing my personal Everest was quite a thing. It was always there, shining in the morning sun, blocking my view of the other mountains, cold and unforgiving, many friends dead on its slopes. My tent... (let's just get on with it eh?). So I climbed it and I am stood on top of it.

I'm up there, breathing the rarefied air and I start to big myself up. And up. Until I become arrogant. "Hey!" If I can do it, then so can everyone else and if they can't then that's their fault." I mean,. maybe it was a bit of a longer conversation that that but that was what was in the nutshell.

Thing is, that arrogance will not serve me well, in the long run. It removes me from who I am. Or, perhaps, who I would like to be. I had become comfortable with sneering at others, it shames me to say., Be kind to the other climbers as you pass them because they may not be there to help you as you skid past them if you fall. I'm sure there's a saying like that. There is a balance in all things.

It has been a painful few days, but with your help I found myself in a different place. A place that I much prefer. It feels like a stain has been scrubbed, the mark will probably always be there but I feel lighter. So thank you, I really mean that. You have helped me, once again.

Now I'm flouncing.

 

[William of Walworth]

Hey, don't leave Urban, eh?

That was a really good post ....

 

[cupid_stunt]

Now I'm flouncing.

I agree with Will, no need to do that.

 

[Clair De Lune]

Respect bmd it takes true courage to take a good hard look at yourself while you're stinging. Hope you stick about.

 

[two sheds]

Yes I've enjoyed your posts too - hope you stay bmd

 

[SheilaNaGig]

So, once more for the cause.

Firstly, unreservedly, Epona I am sorry for being so shit to you.

Secondly, let's all cringe together at my replies? Done? Good.

So here are my thoughts about this. They're not another excuse, they're me thinking about why I have become unempathic towards certain members of society. You were right Clair De Lune . I'm sure you don't need me to tell you that.

Climbing my personal Everest was quite a thing. It was always there, shining in the morning sun, blocking my view of the other mountains, cold and unforgiving, many friends dead on its slopes. My tent... (let's just get on with it eh?). So I climbed it and I am stood on top of it.

I'm up there, breathing the rarefied air and I start to big myself up. And up. Until I become arrogant. "Hey!" If I can do it, then so can everyone else and if they can't then that's their fault." I mean,. maybe it was a bit of a longer conversation that that but that was what was in the nutshell.

Thing is, that arrogance will not serve me well, in the long run. It removes me from who I am. Or, perhaps, who I would like to be. I had become comfortable with sneering at others, it shames me to say., Be kind to the other climbers as you pass them because they may not be there to help you as you skid past them if you fall. I'm sure there's a saying like that. There is a balance in all things.

It has been a painful few days, but with your help I found myself in a different place. A place that I much prefer. It feels like a stain has been scrubbed, the mark will probably always be there but I feel lighter. So thank you, I really mean that. You have helped me, once again.

Now I'm flouncing.

I remember being like that myself. Really proud of the work I’d done and hailing and hallelujah-ing myself internally because I knew how tough it was to do that long lonely work, and so fucking relieved to be looking out at the view from the top. Watching others scratching away at the work while I sat there and enjoyed my sandwiches. But yeah, it’s thin air and it’s remote and it gets lonesome.

It’s good to recognise and be proud of the work you did. It’s fucking tough to pull yourself out of the grave and up to the light and no one else can really know how much work you did, so no one but yourself can really give you the appropriate praise. But then, like what has happened here, something gets under your heel and you slip. Not back down the Everest you just climbed, but enough to change your view. And from the new perspective you see that the mountain you’ve climbed is just part of a whole landscape, with other mountains that might not be so high but might be tougher, and beautiful lush valleys that are a long, long way off, and narrow ridges with precipitous drops on either side, and easy wide tracks in some places too. So now you can either stay on top of the mountain you just climbed and settle there (maybe crowing, or maybe offering help and guidance) or you can set off to explore the rest of the landscape. (And I’ve found much higher tougher mountains beyond that first horizon.)

Everyone will have their own journey and not all of us will have to climb the same mountains or delve into the same valleys.

I think we should be proud of what we do achieve, I think that’s appropriate and important. And I think it’s also really important that we send each other postcards from our own arrival points. Learning how to do that is also another part of the journey. And how to read the postcards that are sent by other people too.

I don’t think you should leave bmd . I think you should stay so we can keep receiving your postcards. I think a global pandemic, with the opportunity to build some kind of new world, hopefully better but maybe worse, is a time to stay connected to people we can build with.

It’s absolutely necessary right now that we reach out and connect, that we reach out and share what we have with each other. We need to name and own what we are proud of, the gifts we have to share. Like the scene in the movie with the shipwreck when we pool our resources and we each say “I have a penknife... I know how to find water.... I can sing well.... I’m good at mechanical stuff.... I’m a good mountaineer... I’m a good gardener...”

It’s not a time for flouncing off to sit alone. We all need to cleave together right now. Our real life communities are crucial, but I reckon this one here is also a pretty good useful community. It’s certainly served us well through this crisis.