Gammon is not racist

[Magnus McGinty]

Just reveal yourself or fuck off you fucking piss ant.

 

[lucillemara]

TopCat's examples are all racist. not difficult. there is also unacceptable abuse that isn't racist but has been cited as such in this thread. and far more common is for the mildest criticism of race, empire, britain or nationalism to be labelled racist because a non-white person said it, especially if they're an academic - the british press is far more vicious towards non-white academics who talk about colonialism than literal self described fascists

 

[lucillemara]

What annoys me about the idpol position of only whites can be racist (because colonialism) is it ignores the volume of PoC who have positions of power. The state accommodates that as their version of equality.

have you heard of class dickhead. you were citing it earlier as a reason to ignore racism. the state accommodates anyone who upholds the status quo. do you think obama's presidency debunks the notion that the US is white supremacist? there's only one acceptable answer to that

 

[littlebabyjesus]

there is also unacceptable abuse that isn't racist but has been cited as such in this thread.

Such as and by whom?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

have you heard of class dickhead. you were citing it earlier as a reason to ignore racism. the state accommodates anyone who upholds the status quo. do you think obama's presidency debunks the notion that the US is white supremacist? there's only one acceptable answer to that

I haven’t argued to ignore racism. I’m arguing that anti-racism often excuses anti-social and criminal behaviour from PoC with claims like its ‘impossible’ for them to be racist or letting bad behaviour slide by excuses of victim hood regardless of their social standing.

 

[lucillemara]

and neither is abuse of people who are sometimes conditionally considered "white" not racist. anti-polish or anti-slavic abuse is racist, more so as poles have become racialised as a scapegoat for britain's dysfunction. british treatment of irish people is racist to this day. the EU and especially Germany's treatment of Greece was racialised. the white ethnics in the US only became "white" (for now) by brutalising other minorities as much as the WASPs did. a dark skinned italian ethnically abusing a light skinned arab is racism. the massacre in pittsburgh was classic fascist racism whether or not the victims are considered "white". don't know what this is supposed to refute.

 

[yield]

Delroy Booth

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Top trumps idpol then.

 

[Spymaster]

Fucking hell.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

and neither is abuse of people who are sometimes conditionally considered "white" not racist. anti-polish or anti-slavic abuse is racist, more so as poles have become racialised as a scapegoat for britain's dysfunction. british treatment of irish people is racist to this day. the EU and especially Germany's treatment of Greece was racialised. the white ethnics in the US only became "white" (for now) by brutalising other minorities as much as the WASPs did. a dark skinned italian ethnically abusing a light skinned arab is racism. the massacre in pittsburgh was classic fascist racism whether or not the victims are considered "white". don't know what this is supposed to refute.

Do you also answer questions, or do you just rant?

 

[lucillemara]

Such as and by whom?

idk any unprovoked violence, there are some accounts earlier in the thread, I believe them but I don't like the context they have been placed in

and who the fuck ever said that only white people can be racist? or that people considered white (why do I have keep reiterating that "races" are not fixed and static but based on literal material conditions, you know like leftists are supposed to care about) are never abused racially? racism is opportunistic and incoherent and people keep asking me to rationalise it for some reason as if it's an abstract logical theory unrelated to the complex and contradictory conditions which bring it about. the fact that imperialism, which actually still exists btw, is treated as irrelevant says it all.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Having witnessed how deindustrialisation has affected the north of England, I have short shrift with terms like ‘white privelege’ esp coming from Harvard or Goldsmiths.

 

[Celyn]

I think it is all part of some modern-day Pythony thing being prepared for someone's first stand-up comedy gig somewhere. End of term concert?

Interesting in its way.

 

[lucillemara]

I haven’t argued to ignore racism. I’m arguing that anti-racism often excuses anti-social and criminal behaviour from PoC with claims like its ‘impossible’ for them to be racist or letting bad behaviour slide by excuses of victim hood regardless of their social standing.

bill o'reilly had a good bit about this

Having witnessed how deindustrialisation has affected the north of England, I have short shrift with terms like ‘white privelege’ esp coming from Harvard or Goldsmiths.

I don't like that phrase and I've never used it and those places are white supremacist to the core

 

[lucillemara]

whoever they are, is to chose one question and see what the response to that is before moving on.

this is hard to do when people keep (deliberately?) misrepresenting me as saying things like "black people can't be racist" or "fuck class"

 

[Magnus McGinty]

You don’t use that phrase but it comes from the same position you occupy. Anyway. I need sleep.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

idk any unprovoked violence, there are some accounts earlier in the thread, I believe them but I don't like the context they have been placed in

and who the fuck ever said that only white people can be racist? or that people considered white (why do I have keep reiterating that "races" are not fixed and static but based on literal material conditions, you know like leftists are supposed to care about) are never abused racially? racism is opportunistic and incoherent and people keep asking me to rationalise it for some reason as if it's an abstract logical theory unrelated to the complex and contradictory conditions which bring it about. the fact that imperialism, which actually still exists btw, is treated as irrelevant says it all.

Ok, this is coherent and I agree with the thrust of it. But I would refute the idea that people are treating imperialism as irrelevant if they define racism in a simple way, meaning basically something synonymous with 'racial prejudice'. That doesn't say anything at all about the dynamics of race and racism as they exist, and certainly doesn't imply that you think imperialism is irrelevant to the discussion. It's just not directly a part of the definition: ie imperialism has shaped definitions of race and the forms that racism takes, but is not itself an essential part of the definition: a cause of something isn't necessarily identical with the thing it causes. For instance, I don't think racism against Poles and other Eastern Europeans can be put down at its root to imperialism. I think that's a stretch. It's best understood as something really much simpler than that, imo - it's a racist expression of prejudice against immigrants, something that, sadly, we see the world over.

 

[TopCat]

Oh no not the polar opposite of the far right that would be awful.

It’s called antifa, it’s not liberal. Liberalism like yours is pretty friendly to the far right.

Do you ever come out doing Antifa stuff? I ask as people on this thread have.

 

[Wilf]

Delroy Booth

We should pitch this as a TV format, if Lloyd Grossman's still available: 'So, who lives in a house like this?'

 

[Thimble Queen]

This person doesn't read like dial to me tbh.

 

[xenon]

Delroy Booth

Ha. Maybe.

I've no idea what they're arguing TBH. Or to be precise, with whom. They've got a point amidst the misdirected ranting but no poster here really fits their target profile.

 

[Athos]

this is hard to do when people keep (deliberately?) misrepresenting me as saying things like "black people can't be racist"...

Just to clarify, whilst you disagree with the idea that black people can't be racist per se, you do believe that black people can't be racist towards white people?

What's the central point you're trying to make? It's it that people who are considered white (at a given time and place) cannot be victims of racism, because racism requires more than racial predjudice; to be a victim of racism requires being part of a group that is oppressed on racial grounds because of structural power differentials (regardless of relative individual power dynamics in the specific incident)?

my answer would be yes, that is vaguely what I'm getting at

 

[keybored]

They haven't posted some Peruvian armpit-flute dark folk techno links and mocked everyone else for not being into it, so probably not dialectician tbf

 

[xenon]

This person doesn't read like dial to me tbh.

I don't get a lot of his political references, am not well read, but he usually makes sense.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

racism is opportunistic and incoherent

Isn't this the important point here? And structural power differentials operate at many different levels, often at the same time. So you can't produce a full unified general theory of racism in which its definition contains its causes. You shouldn't even try - all you end up doing is producing generalisations that don't work.

And in case that wasn't clear, I do not seek to say that imperialism is irrelevant, far from it. You're not the only one being misunderstood here.

 

[lucillemara]

Do you also answer questions, or do you just rant?

mostly rant but I answer questions if they are in good faith or particularly awful

You don’t use that phrase but it comes from the same position you occupy. Anyway. I need sleep.

oh so now implicature does exist and everything isn't its literal meaning. yeah "race is based on material conditions" is basically the same as "fuck class" I guess

Ok, this is coherent and I agree with the thrust of it. But I would refute the idea that people are treating imperialism as irrelevant if they define racism in a simple way, meaning basically something synonymous with 'racial prejudice'. That doesn't say anything at all about the dynamics of race and racism as they exist, and certainly doesn't imply that you think imperialism is irrelevant to the discussion. It's just not directly a part of the definition: ie imperialism has shaped definitions of race and the forms that racism takes, but is not itself an essential part of the definition: a cause of something isn't necessarily identical with the thing it causes. For instance, I don't think racism against Poles and other Eastern Europeans can be put down at its root to imperialism. I think that's a stretch. It's best understood as something really much simpler than that, imo - it's a racist expression of prejudice against immigrants, something that, sadly, we see the world over.

imperialism obviously isn't the whole story, although the nazi vilification of slavs (as preparation for setter-colonialism in eastern europe) didn't come from nowhere and isn't entirely unrelated, although it is also in the interest of the media barons to demonise minorities instead of the bourgeoisie, and to promote fascism instead paying slightly higher taxes on their inherited slave labour. I don't think racism as we talk about it is separable from colonialism, capitalism, imperialism, slavery, genocide (Japan, a fascist ethnostate, has many problems with racism particularly against those brutalised by the empire) although it has never been a consistent or coherent concept - the racial categories we think in terms of, similar to those on the census, would not exist without this history and there have been changes in who has been racialised as conditions have changed. Why do white people exist? I have asked this several times. White people obviously didn't exist in ancient greece, although the inferior races were easily identifiable by the fact that they were enslaved by or threatened the dominance of rich cunts like Plato. White people, as a master race, didn't exist before capitalism and the rise of the bourgeoisie (if they'd been black it would have been different obviously) and european colonialism, settler-colonialism in the americas in particular. White people are those not worthy of violence by their very nature (except as traitors or degenerates) this is why there are any white people. This is why the Iraq war is no big deal and supporters are still allowed to exist. Why British people love that evil genocidal turd Churchill. Why Trump won and why white liberals think Hillary is a progressive feminist. Why the white billionaire class has already chosen fascism and genocide as their solution to the human problem.

 

[Athos]

Why do white people exist?

When a (white) man and a (white) woman love each other very much, they have a special cuddle...

 

[Thimble Queen]

I don't get a lot of his political references, am not well read, but he usually makes sense.

The style and content is quite different.

 

[SpineyNorman]

lucillemara What do you aim to achieve by posting here? You seem to be expending a lot of time and energy on people you clearly hold in complete contempt and who you clearly have no desire to persuade. Seems a bit unhealthy to me.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Delroy Booth

No chance.