Feminism- experiences of man-whispering and the refusal to do so...

[Treacle Toes]

Following on from spanglechick 's post on another thread and the interesting points she and other's made...

I often refuse to Man-whisper, I can see that it's sometimes my default...in my life I have had so much more beef with men than women, particular alphas. Even as a heterosexual woman.

I was not nurtured to yield or whisper useless you actually wanted to (choice eh?) by the significant females in my life growing up... Wider society, shared culture, the patriarchy, of course all there and affecting but in personal everyday interactions my default isn't to demure myself...this has had a major impact on my relationships with men within and outside of my family.

What about you?

How do you understand the idea of 'man whispering' in terms of female identity and safety?

How does that reflect on your own life and relationships?

ETA:

“man whispering” that we all need to do in order to outfox men’s instinctive reaction to feel offended and shut down or get shouty,

sometimes it’s undeniably expedient to find a different way of delivering the message. A way that doesn’t challenge his ego. I know I find it useful.

this fragility is yet another way to keep us silent and, I suppose, in our place, compliant with his wishes to be left alone to keep on doing it his way.

I've given up "man whispering". It's too exhausting constantly trying to work out how to say things without bruising his ego or offending him.

 

[Supine]

What is it?

 

[Treacle Toes]

What is it?

Good point..i'll add examples.

 

[ska invita]

One of my upper sixth came to see me last week because she and her boyfriend kept blowing up about him worrying about her too much and her wanting to put down some boundaries. And as I was explaining all these ways of being heard, this “man whispering” that we all need to do in order to outfox men’s instinctive reaction to feel offended and shut down or get shouty, I said to her that I felt like a bad feminist, because she *should* be able to say “I don’t need looking after like you think I do. I was capable before we met.” and just be heard.

But sometimes it’s undeniably expedient to find a different way of delivering the message. A way that doesn’t challenge his ego. I know I find it useful. Interestingly, also in the office was a male colleague who said afterwards that he didn’t think it was a bad thing, that he recognises that women have these better communication skills (namnaw) and he’s grateful when his partner has used them on him.

Because of course he is. Because he doesn’t have to learn or change himself.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

It’s not you, it’s me... ( I don’t like you as much as I thought I would, I feel played and I want to get away from you without making you angry/hurt and then becoming all weird and stalkerish or talk shit about me)

It’s not that *you* don’t make me come, it’s more that I have a problem when I’m not able to... (What the fuck is this shit! There’s two of us here, slow down, pay attention!)

It would be wonderful if sometimes, if you’re not too busy or preoccupied, if you could maybe... (rather than Sort it out ffs!)

 

[spanglechick]

Heh. So, I might explain a bit more.

True to the spirit of NAMNAW, broth my father nor my ex husband needed special ways of phrasing things to avoid a row... but, having been increasingly frustrated by my partner’s insecurity-driven over-reaction if I try to brooch any topic that includes my unhappiness with what he has done, I resorted to communicating in a way that was entirely designed to hear the message without his instinctive emotional klaxon silencing further discussion. I discussed this with my sisters and it seems to be not uncommon.

 

[Treacle Toes]

having been increasingly frustrated by my partner’s insecurity-driven over-reaction if I try to brooch any topic that includes my unhappiness with what he has done, I resorted to communicating in a way that was entirely designed to hear the message without his instinctive emotional klaxon silencing further discussion. I discussed this with my sisters and it seems to be not uncommon.

Can you give an example of this? Even if made up I mean.

 

[spanglechick]

Can you give an example of this? Even if made up I mean.

The biggest breakthrough involved me sending him a text, forbidding him from replying (he was working away overnight), telling him to read it again in the morning, and then if he still wanted to talk about it when he got home the next evening, we could.

We never did discuss it, but all the issues about money that he’d been unable to hear from me for years, more or less got sorted, because he could finally hear the message and not the klaxon.

 

[weepiper]

I have to do this all the time with Mr W. It's exhausting.

 

[petee]

youse realize that men have no monopoly on this.

 

[Santino]

youse realize that men have no monopoly on this.

Don't do this, please. This is just 'but what about the menz'.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

*files into box containing other such horrors such as manspreading and micro-aggressions.

 

[Steel Icarus]

I'm still not really clear on what it means. Is it an old thing with a new name? What is it?

 

[farmerbarleymow]

I'm still not really clear on what it means. Is it an old thing with a new name? What is it?

I've not heard of the term before, but from what I understand from the thread (and happy to be corrected here), it might be phrasing things in a way to soften the message to avoid a bloke reacting rather than saying what you think.

 

[gentlegreen]

It's such a shame.
I'm still always surprised by the 40 year old chap at work come out with MRA shit - in spite of doing pretty well compared to the next generation - he's gone down the Jordan Peterson rabbithole.
A more enlightened place of employment would be difficult to find - maybe 50 percent (highly educated) women.
He seems a little over-protective (patronising) of his divorced mother ...

For me, I noted the appearance of "lad mags" in campus shops several decades ago - though I didn't anticipate what that generation of males would end up like.

Why would anyone be afraid of being challenged by anyone - male or female ?
It's a key aspect of how we learn and connects us to people.

That said, I have found myself in danger of being accused of "man-splaining" a couple of times when I've seen young female cyclists putting themselves in danger .. I see it more as old-splaining - and perhaps they'd see it that way.

Usually with male cyclists they're behaving like arseholes and that dictates the appropriate advice.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

I've not heard of the term before, but from what I understand from the thread (and happy to be corrected here), it might be phrasing things in a way to soften the message to avoid a bloke reacting rather than saying what you think.

So treading on eggshells, as it's usually called.

 

[Pickman's model]

Man-whisperer: a super-subspecies of the female gender who has learned (through trial and error) to adopt a sympathetic view of her man's motives, needs and desires. She effectively negotiates a win-win resolution while using imperceptible key buzzwords, which inspire her man to satisfy her requests, all the while making it seem like his brilliant idea.

Donna Sozio & Samantha Brett, the Man-whisperer: a gentle results-oriented approach to communications (2011)

 

[TopCat]

It's just managing someone. Applies to men and women.

 

[Manter]

I'm still not really clear on what it means. Is it an old thing with a new name? What is it?

Women second guessing what they say and how they say it to men.

In intimate relationships to avoid emotional explosions or even physical violence. In professional contexts to avoid being written off as bitchy/aggressive/emotional etc. Etc etc

 

[Sweet FA]

It's alright ladies, it doesn't exist.

 

[Manter]

It's alright ladies, it doesn't exist.

Phew! I’ll get back to cleaning up the kitchen then

 

[Baronage-Phase]

It absolutely exists.

 

[Manter]

It absolutely exists.

He was being sarcastic

 

[weepiper]

Do you know what, it's really very boring EVERY TIME women identify something that happens between us and men specifically that men pop up and dismiss it. Very very boring.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Man-whisperer: a super-subspecies of the female gender who has learned (through trial and error) to adopt a sympathetic view of her man's motives, needs and desires. She effectively negotiates a win-win resolution while using imperceptible key buzzwords, which inspire her man to satisfy her requests, all the while making it seem like his brilliant idea.

Donna Sozio & Samantha Brett, the Man-whisperer: a gentle results-oriented approach to communications (2011)

This isn’t what’s being flagged up here.

It’s what Manter said.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Do you know what, it's really very boring EVERY TIME women identify something that happens between us and men specifically that men pop up and dismiss it. Very very boring.

It's even more boring when someone takes a universal human experience and makes it gender specific so as to claim special victimhood status. And then invents a silly word for it.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

This isn’t what’s being flagged up here.

It’s what Manter said.

If this is the case then ignore my previous post

 

[wiskey]

Don't we do this with everyone though? I speak to my mum/boss/friends/husband/children in specific tailored ways to aid getting a good result.

 

[Treacle Toes]

It's even more boring when someone takes a universal human experience and makes it gender specific so as to claim special victimhood status. And then invents a silly word for it.

So we don't need Feminism at all then. Women and men are the same, treat eachother the same, are educated to have the same outlook and aspirations. Just another silly word we invented to claim special victim status?

 

[SheilaNaGig]

It’s not just about getting a good result.

It’s actively avoiding a bad result. And the potential escalation that can follow.