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fascist infiltration of the left

bolshiebhoy said:
But in all seriousness RJ following that logic why not temporarily shut down the entire swp as what guarantee is there that any other region is immune to the same tactic? Oh god why did I say that :( For god's sakes what makes you think an 'investigation' would have uncoevered these two in the first place if they were as convincing as they seem to have been?
firstly - I'm trying to strike a balance here, between the SWP keeping going (on balance, a good thing) and between people getting their heads kicked in.
why an investigation? because such a process can unearth - who they talk to, who they socialise with, communicate with etc..where they go, when, what they do with their time...it reveals patterns of behaviour from which one can draw conclusions. it's not much, but at least it's SOMETHING! right now swappie security seems to run along these lines "we've heard you've got BNP connections. is that true?" "no, of course not!" "OK, that's all right, then..." I despair of their amateurishness and gullibility, I really do.
 
editor said:
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and the newly formed cheese and wine party club? :)
 
Karac said:
Its a bit weird allowing a couple of fresh faced BNP students to become such leading players in the SWP in Manchester.
You dont have to grill the fuckers ,but there must have been some pointers?
When i was in the Militant in Camden we had all sorts joining up!
Heroin addicts and careerist wannabee councillors/MPs!
Dont know who was worst!
But never facists!
What the fuck did they say in meetings?
According to an interim report from the politically-neutral National Association of Political Infiltrators (NAPI), the two young moles mostly stuck to talking about leafleting and paper sales, but once or twice they risked giving themselves away with misguided political comment.

Their comments were passed over in embarrassed silence - though as Levien explained earlier on this thread, Finnon's "politics and attitude to others were not great and he was not always popular in our branch."

Joe Finnon (at a branch social): "That Oswald Moseley was the greatest Prime Minister we never had."

Joe Finnon (later, in his cups): "I'd have you red scum shot!"

Diane Stoker (at a branch committee meeting): "Wouldn't we do better if we became the National Socialist British Workers Party?"


A spokesperson for NAPI said: "Some small fringe parties may now become a little more vigilant. We will shortly be issuing new guidelines for our members. We do not encourage infiltrators to boast about their antics."
 
Red Jezza said:
such a process can unearth - who they talk to, who they socialise with, communicate with etc..where they go, when, what they do with their time...it reveals patterns of behaviour from which one can draw conclusions
So the Manc swp or the NW region is supposed to sit down and ask these questions of every member are they? And who is gonna answer those questions or should they just go to everyone's mum and ask who their friends are? Sorry for being flipant but come on this is fantsasyland. When I was in the swp my ex didn't know the answers to those questions (which is why she's my ex) and I'm damn sure the district organiser of the party didn't.
 
JHE said:
Joe Finnon (later, in his cups): "I'd have you red scum shot!"
Chortle chortle, but hey if you'd been in their branch you could have had a good few laughs about Islamophobia couldn't you?
 
bolshiebhoy said:
So the Manc swp or the NW region is supposed to sit down and ask these questions of every member are they? And who is gonna answer those questions or should they just go to everyone's mum and ask who their friends are? Sorry for being flipant but come on this is fantsasyland. When I was in the swp my ex didn't know the answers to those questions (which is why she's my ex) and I'm damn sure the district organiser of the party didn't.
you really don't understand this word 'investivgation' do you? or 'security'.
I am talking - if necessary - of surveillance of those who arouse suspicion. if necessary, use 3rd parties. I find it impossible to believe that in this instance, the two didn't leave pointers and tell-tale signs the size of Blackburn. NO 19 year old is that good. I'd bet a fortune that if NW SWP had been anything other than cosmically dozy bastards
look at class war. They SLOWLY let people into their ranks, checking all the time. any doubts - I do mean ANY - the ranks close. people only get higher responsibilities within that organisation once they've been around, and proven, a fair way down the line.
I am not suggesting the SWP sets up its' own KGB, but right now they have NO means of knowing. The moral of the story here is that two dimwit freshers tucked up the whole NW region - look how quickly they advanced thru' the ranks - and made them lopok like absolute arses, regardless of the safety implications.
 
Red Jezza said:
look at class war. They SLOWLY let people into their ranks, checking all the time. any doubts - I do mean ANY - the ranks close. people only get higher responsibilities within that organisation once they've been around, and proven, a fair way down the line. I am not suggesting the SWP sets up its' own KGB
The spirit of Bakunin is alive and well. Remind me to bring this stuff up next time an anrchist has a pop at democratic centralism.
 
bolshiebhoy said:
The spirit of Bakunin is alive and well. Remind me to bring this stuff up next time an anrchist has a pop at democratic centralism.
..and remind us to bring up this incident next time a trot (any trot - just like you're using CW to represent all anarchist) tries to argue that DC is essential for security reasons.
 
butchersapron said:
..and remind us to bring up this incident next time a trot (any trot - just like you're using CW to represent all anarchist) tries to argue that DC is essential for security reasons.
Persoanlly I've never argued that. In fact I said earlier on the thread that the question of security was in one sense not even a political one.

I take it you disagree with CW's approach to these questions then butchers?
 
bolshiebhoy said:
Persoanlly I've never argued that. In fact I said earlier on the thread that the question of security was in one sense not even a political one.

I take it you disagree with CW's approach to these questions then butchers?
But you are aware that this is an argument that has been historically utilsed by trots/leninist/bolsheviks in defence of their organisational principles - one was on here doing just that last week or the week before.

Put it like this - i know which group i'd feel safer passing on personal information to. Now your point seems to be that tighter security is needed, but when that tighter security is implemented you attack it.

And the chances of me contributing to letting you turn this fuck up on the SWPs part into yet another of your attacks on anarchists is precisely nil.
 
bolshiebhoy said:
The spirit of Bakunin is alive and well. Remind me to bring this stuff up next time an anrchist has a pop at democratic centralism.
oh for heaven's sake! I am talking about the extreme example whereby - as here - BNP moles have infiltrated for long enough, and well enough, and gone far enough, to know some truly serious, important stuff. do you REALLY think these two herberts DIDN'T leave signs all around the shop? that if the SWP had woken up they COULDN'T have rumbled 'em long ago?
'cos I don't. we ain't dealing with Burgess and MacLean here!
 
butchersapron said:
Now your point seems to be that tighter security is needed, but when that tighter security is implemented you attack it.
My point was that I couldn't see how the questions RJ asked could possibly be answered unless you're in an organisation small enough that everyone lives in the same flat. What is beyond question is that nobody should get into a position of relative authority in any organisation without some assurance that they have a reasonable grounding in the politics beyond being able to say 'Blair is a twat'. If that didn't happen with these two (but for all I know they could quote large chunks of Leon's history of the russian revolution) then that was a mistake. Who is a 'safe' pair of hands is subjective but if it's not even based on a political estimation then that is wrong.
 
bolshiebhoy said:
My point was that I couldn't see how the questions RJ asked could possibly be answered unless you're in an organisation small enough that everyone lives in the same flat. What is beyond question is that nobody should get into a position of relative authority in any organisation without some assurance that they have a reasonable grounding in the politics beyond being able to say 'Blair is a twat'. If that didn't happen with these two (but for all I know they could quote large chunks of Leon's history of the russian revolution) then that was a mistake. Who is a 'safe' pair of hands is subjective but if it's not even based on a political estimation then that is wrong.
They could be asked nonetheless - that's how you start to build up background on people - put in place a coherent procedure that is applied to all new members, and a process whereby people can bring up any concerns regarding existing members. No one is expecting the SWP to instantly come up with the info on all NW members - an indication that a formal method of dealing with these issues will be put in place and continued from this point onwards is what i think people are after from them.

Now, i saw nothing in the RESPECT text that filled me with much hope that this is actually going to be the case, but i will await any further developments.

I have no problem whatsover with seeking to ensure that members in psotions of responsibility have a political understanding of the group and it's politics - this should actually form the basis for individuals taking postions of responsibility - but there must also be political education within the wider group as a counter-balance to people building up little empires for themselves.
 
Red Jezza said:
look at class war. They SLOWLY let people into their ranks, checking all the time. any doubts - I do mean ANY - the ranks close. people only get higher responsibilities within that organisation once they've been around, and proven, a fair way down the line.
hmm...

we are careful about the people who join cw, but responsibilities are shared around the group. we take the threat of infiltration seriously! we don't - however - allow our caution to become paranoia.
 
In a major provocation to the left and the whole antiracist movement, the BNP has announced that it’s infiltrated Unite Against Fascism, The Socialist Workers’ Party and Respect.

Diane Stoker and Jo Finnon, two students in Manchester SWSS and leading members of Respect North West, have announced themselves to be fascist spies. They have posted photos of themselves smiling with Nick Griffin, the BNP’s leader, and Tony Wentworth, the North West Youth Organiser, at this years Red White and Blue Festival on the BNP’s website.

We should unite in demanding that these fascist provocateurs are driven out of the students’ unions and off the campuses. They have abused the trust of hundreds of students and antiracist campaigners and, we must assume, passed on their personal details to fascist thugs. Indeed they boast on the BNP website, “Over the last twelve months, there has been nothing that these groups have discussed or planned that hasn't come back to the BNP.”

Now is a time to stand in solidarity with the members of these organisations whose safety has been compromised. However, we must also demand that the leaders of these organisations do more to publicise the dangers and immediately convene an inquiry to minimise the risk of any future infiltration.


A year ago Finnon and Stoker joined Manchester SWSS, on the instructions of the BNP to discover and undermine the work of Manchester anti-fascists.
Within days of entering the SWP local leadership promoted them over the next year they took:

Responsible positions within Manchester Against Racism
Leadership of student work at Manchester Metropolitan University and Manchester University
Elected to the national SWP conference which agreed the Respect turn
Leadership of Respect in the North West
Globalise Resistance recruitment at Marxism 2004

Throughout this time there was no inkling that they were BNP spies. The SWP undertook no checks on them and allowed them unlimited access to membership lists, petitions, e-mail groups, photo archives and all other internal information of all these organisations at quite a high level.

IF YOU HAVE SIGNED A PETITION, PARTICIPATED IN AN ACTION OR JOINED, MANCHESTER AGAINST RACISM, UNITE AGAINST FASCISM, SWSS, GLOBALISE RESISTANCE OR MANCHESTER SWP IN THE LAST 12 MONTHS BE AWARE THE BNP COULD HAVE YOUR CONTACT DETAILS, ADDRESS, PHONE AND E-MAIL.

Their entry raises questions of a systematic nature. These two raw fascists who never demonstrated any political understanding or interest in theory or ideas, were promoted over the existing Manchester SWSS leadership because they fulfilled the essential test of SWP membership – obedience. They did what they were told. They unquestioningly accepted instructions from the bureaucratic apparatus and carried them out unswervingly.

But the entryism of Finnon and Stoker was not limited to discovering information on the left. They were genuine agent provocateurs who encouraged the arrest of leading Manchester anti-fascist militants and disrupted and undermined our work.

They were a part of the SWP led Manchester Against Racism organising committee which arranged the stewarding of the launch rally which was notoriously occupied by 20 or so Fascists: the first public presence of the fascists in Manchester for nearly 20 year. It should be said they didn’t have a difficult job disrupting the stewarding, as the SWP themselves proposed asking the police to steward and rang the police on the day when the fascists showed up.

In an even more sinister twist the following week Workers Power comrades were rung by Diane Stoker informing them that Tony Wentworth, the BNP youth organiser, was attempting to spy on the left by drinking in the main left pub in town. She reported that he was harassing women comrades and making sexist remarks towards them. She said she felt threatened and urged our comrades to come down. Aware of the risks of fascist attack we had no choice but to attend. And indeed Wentworth was there in the pub. We agreed to talk to Wentworth to discuss with him why his behaviour was inappropriate. He was immediately violent and aggressive. When we went outside to further discuss the matter with him two police officers appeared. We explained the situation to them and they escorted Wentworth away. It didn’t feel good at the time. But with the benefit of what we now know this was a clear attempt to have our comrades either attacked or arrested.

Anti-fascists be warned, this spying operation endangered the entire left.

The SWP must admit to some responsibility for enabling it to take place and apologise for exposing the wider movement. We don’t make these criticisms lightly, nor should we be complacent about our own security. Certainly, Manchester Workers Power supporters never suspected the two. We were duped along with the rest of the antiracist movement. However, we do have basic security measures in place: namely political education, background checks and a system of candidate membership.

All organisations that claim to be revolutionary must ask themselves hard questions when infiltration is discovered. Was the key test of any revolutionary – do you understand and can you apply the method of revolutionary socialism in the class struggle- ever asked of these two? Or were they rapidly advanced because they were the ultimate yes people, for obvious reasons they always did exactly what they were told. Enthusiasm is good; but political understanding and education is not an optional extra. Determined infiltrators may get over even these hurdles which is one of the reasons for a system of candidate membership (which the SWP does not currently operate) and for the immediate democratic recall of officials by the membership.

The SWP needs to act decisively to change this culture. But it won’t and indeed it can’t, on its current trajectory. The increasingly sudden swerves of position, the abandonment of key principles of revolutionary socialism – working class independence, women’s rights, lesbian and gay rights, secularism and indeed socialism itself, encourages a culture of compliant, obedient, subservient membership which partly enabled these two to advance so rapidly and with such disastrous results is the only type of membership the leadership can tolerate.

Days after this news was released the SWP have made no public comment on the matter, with the exception of the woefully inadequate quotes in the Morning Star report. Silence is not an option in the face of fascist infiltration.

We have yet to hear what campaign the SWP proposes to launch against these two.
We have yet to hear any proposals for correcting the damage.
We have yet to hear an honest accounting of what went wrong or the extent of the damage.

In the meantime, we mustn’t wait but immediately launch a campaign. Manchester Workers Power has already leafleted Finnon’s workplace, in a local supermarket, where black and white workers alike were disgusted that they’d been working alongside a fascist.

We have also submitted an emergency resolution to Unite Against Fascism to join us in the fight to get Finnon and Stoker expelled from their universities. We will also put resolutions through the AUT and Unison branches, whose members as well as students have been placed at risk due to Finnon and Stoker’s deceptions. They have not only used deception to gain access to personal details, they have contravened all the antiracist and equal opportunities policies of the universities, and secretly aided an organisation dedicated to race hate and violent attacks.


In the new term we will launch a massive publicity campaign amongst students and lecturers demanding-

Expel the fascist students
Kick the fascists out of the students’ unions
Boycott classes if Finnon and Stoker are allowed to attend
No platform for fascists to spread their racist filth
 
bolshiebhoy said:
The spirit of Bakunin is alive and well. Remind me to bring this stuff up next time an anrchist has a pop at democratic centralism.
i didn't realise that the swp were democratic! i thought they were just centralist.
 
Pickman's model said:
hmm...

we are careful about the people who join cw, but responsibilities are shared around the group. we take the threat of infiltration seriously! we don't - however - allow our caution to become paranoia.
...which is the kind of balance I referred to earlier in the thread - striking a workable, if not happy, medium. the SWP seem to have ZERO security. if these two fuckwits could waltz through their ranks like Rogers & Astaire, anyone could.
 
Red Jezza said:
...which is the kind of balance I referred to earlier in the thread - striking a workable, if not happy, medium. the SWP seem to have ZERO security. if these two fuckwits could waltz through their ranks like Rogers & Astaire, anyone could.
not so much astaire and rogers but quasimodo and the wicked witch of the (north) west.
 
cockneyrebel said:
They have not only used deception to gain access to personal details, they have contravened all the antiracist and equal opportunities policies of the universities, and secretly aided an organisation dedicated to race hate and violent attacks.
1. you don't know all the anti-racist and equal ops policies of the universities. most of them won't even relate to students but to recruitment and treatment of staff. when i was a student, the equal ops policy of one london college didn't even mention students till a student noticed this and pointed it out. just cos these two have been nasty and bad doesn't mean they've broken all sorts of university policy - satan, they were members of the swp throughout the period, yet the swp don't appear to have had an inkling they weren't all they appeared. or maybe the swp tolerate anti-racism/equal ops policies being broken?


In the new term we will launch a massive publicity campaign amongst students and lecturers demanding-

Expel the fascist students
Kick the fascists out of the students’ unions
Boycott classes if Finnon and Stoker are allowed to attend
No platform for fascists to spread their racist filth
you most likely won't see them expelled, as this is a police matter, and if no charges are brought then nothing will happen to them from the universities - after all, there are students i've known of who haven't been expelled for rape when no complaint was made to the police. you cannot - afaik - get them kicked out of the students' union - ie have their membership revoked - as they may not even be members of the union. did the swp ever check to see if they had opted out? students are members of their su unless they opt out - they are members by virtue of being a student. so no luck there either. you might have more luck with number three.
 
Pickman's model said:
you cannot - afaik - get them kicked out of the students' union - ie have their membership revoked - as they may not even be members of the union. did the swp ever check to see if they had opted out? students are members of their su unless they opt out - they are members by virtue of being a student. so no luck there either. you might have more luck with number three.
Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't these two well known at uni meetings invloved in forwarding anti-racist motions etc? Wouldn't somebody at the union have noticed if opted-out persons were proposing motions? You may not be able to expel them but they can be excluded from Union meetings, union run premisses etc. I know for a fact that happened to people at the LSE while I was there.
 
RJ it was a statement put out by Workers Power so I just thought I'd post it up. No harm there I don't think!

Pickmans it was written by people in Manchester not, so I don't know the ins and outs of MUs policies. In terms of fighting for stuff, sometimes you fight for stuff even if it is gonna be hard. For instance the need for illegal strike action for strikes to be successful.
 
cockneyrebel said:
Pickmans it was written by people in Manchester not, so I don't know the ins and outs of MUs policies. In terms of fighting for stuff, sometimes you fight for stuff even if it is gonna be hard. For instance the need for illegal strike action for strikes to be successful.
Fair shout cr. He must be the most legalistic anarchist (if that's not a contradiction in terms it ought to be) I've ever come across.
 
bolshiebhoy said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't these two well known at uni meetings invloved in forwarding anti-racist motions etc? Wouldn't somebody at the union have noticed if opted-out persons were proposing motions? You may not be able to expel them but they can be excluded from Union meetings, union run premisses etc. I know for a fact that happened to people at the LSE while I was there.
i don't know if they opted out or not - the union would have a list. the only people to opt out of their unions who i've heard of were far-right types - one to check, perhaps.

the problem with disciplining them is that - frankly - criminal offences have almost certainly occurred - theft, for a start. if you don't make a complaint to the police then i feel yr on shaky ground to discipline these two. certainly, were i a sabbatical at mmu or manchester university union, i'd want to see some action from the aggrieved parties before any disciplinary proceedings were brought, in the same way people don't get sacked before they get convicted in a court. if the swp and their associated bodies don't wish to pursue legal action against the pair, then they're (imo) tying the hands of the universities and unions.

again, have swss taken any action against the pair? i would expect the swss constitution to have some means of expelling the pair, which (again) were i a sabb i'd wish to see done first. although that can't really be done till the start of the autumn term, i don't see how union disciplinary proceedings can be started until other avenues have been gone down.

talk to one of the manc sabbs, but i'd expect the student unions involved to echo what i've said.
 
cockneyrebel said:
Pickmans it was written by people in Manchester not, so I don't know the ins and outs of MUs policies. In terms of fighting for stuff, sometimes you fight for stuff even if it is gonna be hard. For instance the need for illegal strike action for strikes to be successful.
yr not going to get them expelled, unless they do something particularly stupid next term. yr on shaky ground with chucking them out the su. boycotting the classes might work, it has in the past at north london poly. but the changes in universities might mean this would work against those boycotting the classes more than yr intended target, attendance at classes now generally mandatory.

frankly, unless the aggrieved parties involve the police i cannot see expulsions or union disciplinary action being taken without being challenged in the courts.
 
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