fascist infiltration of the left

[flimsier]

I suppose.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Here is the response from the SWP, from their internal notes (already put up on the web by an SWPer). Appalling.

The 'revelations' of these two is minor tittle tattle. Unfortunately for them it's difficult to 'expose' an open, democratic active organisation. The 'expose' reflects the BNP's crisis at not having made a breakthrough in the Euro elections rather than any strength. The students groups at Manchester are absolutely clear that they will organise for big open recruitment to SWSS and fight to build the biggest most confident left to finish off these scum for good.

We should, however, be wary if people join & are more interested in technical jobs & getting access to data rather than ideas.

Victor Serge argued the best way to deal with police spies was to make them work hard & the best way to expose them was through a high level of political discussion.

 

[Streathamite]

jesus wept, was that IT? are you sure you've not missed any, cr?
if that's all they've got to say, that's truly tragic.

 

[danno_at_work]

jesus wept, was that IT? are you sure you've not missed any, cr?
if that's all they've got to say, that's truly tragic.

what do you want ??

show trials and public beatings??

 

[alphaDelta]

The 'revelations' of these two is minor tittle tattle. Unfortunately for them it's difficult to 'expose' an open, democratic active organisation

Fair comment. There were no important secrets to give away in the first place, which can be interpreted however you like.

The 'expose' reflects the BNP's crisis at not having made a breakthrough in the Euro elections rather than any strength.

In terms of timescales of these events, and general lateral thought, that doesn't make any sense.

...and fight to build the biggest most confident left to finish off these scum for good.

Very playgroundesque. As for the rest, yes. Clearly someone needs to consider that names and addresses of members might just be considered critical. Then again, with these kind of lacklustre performances, who would want them anyway?

Overall it's a poor statement that smacks of naivety/immaturity/failure to take it seriously, but this issue won't make much difference in the end, except to embarrass them in lefty circles. Nice to see they're still managing to pull out ideological quotes in the face of adversity, mind...

 

[Streathamite]

what do you want ??

show trials and public beatings??

no.
I want full revelation of whether these two herberts have walked off with confidential data; the general nature of that data; assurances that all individuals whose safety and privacy have been compromised have been/will be informed; open analysis of how two gullible, naive 19-year-olds stitched you up like a kipper; assurances (CONVINCING ones) recommendations of how the Manc student body should respond to their on-campus presence next year; and a full and public apology to all those who this have fucked over.
In short, a clean breast and sincere acceptance of your monumental, cataclysmic fuck up, rather than the dismal, bland-to-blank whitewash-statement above.
and all open and upfront.
I mean, you ARE an 'open' organisation, aren't you?

 

[flimsier]

RJ: That was from internal literature. There's no concern about political 'revelations' but they have mentioned concern about data.

People in Manc SWP don't think they had access to any data other than in a supervised manner (ring arounds etc) - but I would imagine (I don't know this bit) they are waiting to ensure no-one can recall them doing so before stating anything definitively.

 

[Streathamite]

that's useful, flim.
and - if they're holding off from an official statement whilst conducting internal disaster recovery, there's sense in that. It's hardly consistent with an organisation that goes so far out of its' way to proclaim itself an open 'organisation', tho'!
I do hope the SWP do realise that there is an urgent need for a full statement, if only for this reason; their cred has been shot to shit by this. people are laughing at them (and I do NOT mean the BNP by that - I refuse to even think of them as people!-I mean other lefties).

 

[Pickman's model]

what do you want ??

show trials and public beatings??

it would be a start...

 

[blamblam]

lol and victor serge was a little grass!

 

[Pickman's model]

(and I do NOT mean the BNP by that - I refuse to even think of them as people!-I mean other lefties).

you may wish to reconsider that rash statement. after all, two of them were perfectly palatable to the swp for a ye...

then again...

yr right!

 

[Pickman's model]

RJ: That was from internal literature. There's no concern about political 'revelations' but they have mentioned concern about data.

People in Manc SWP don't think they had access to any data other than in a supervised manner (ring arounds etc) - but I would imagine (I don't know this bit) they are waiting to ensure no-one can recall them doing so before stating anything definitively.

they don't THINK they had access to data?

what do they do with their treasurers, supervise them all, all the time?

fucking rubbish, flimsier, it's fucking bollocks. if the bnpers hadn't been able to get any information they'd have been out of the swp in a week or three. as it is, they have information - like phone numbers - for all the people who were mates with them in the last year, all the people they swapped numbers with after demos and meetings, all the names of people who donated money.

if the bnp had had nothing from this arsy fiasco, do you really think they'd trumpet their infiltration?

 

[Pickman's model]

Victor Serge argued the best way to deal with police spies was to make them work hard & the best way to expose them was through a high level of political discussion.

but the swp didn't expose these two bnpers -- the bnp did.

 

[alphaDelta]

if the bnp had had nothing from this arsy fiasco, do you really think they'd trumpet their infiltration?

Yes. What they actually come out with bears no relation to what they'll go telling everyone about. I'm not, however, suggesting they haven't got any membership data.

 

[flimsier]

if the bnp had had nothing from this arsy fiasco, do you really think they'd trumpet their infiltration?

Absolutely.

In fact, I think if they had learned a lot, they'd be more likely to keep it quiet.

You can shout rubbish all you like, but we know that no matter what, on any issue, you will seek to make the SWP look as bad as possible - even if it means making statements about events you were not privy to, had no knowledge or clue about, and that no-one has spoken to you about.

So, why do you think you know better than those who actually worked with those people?

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes. What they actually come out with bears no relation to what they'll go telling everyone about. I'm not, however, suggesting they haven't got any membership data.

i'm saying - quite simply - that a year spent infiltrating the swp, which saw the bnpers gain positions of considerable responsibility in the swp, HAS resulted in confidential information being abstracted by the two infiltrators. without arousing any suspicion, the two were able to get onto the marxism team and to scrutinise financial records, membership lists, petitions, contact lists and so on. one would have to be a total incompetent to fail to photocopy this sort of information, to which stokes at least would have been privy. unless there is some sort of secret system within the swp where no officer - secretary, treasurer, branch organiser - ever handles information on their own, then it is blatantly clear that a considerable amount of information has gone the bnp's way. i really do not see the point in denying the loss of this information.

if nothing went missing, then why are our "comrades" in manchester so concerned?

 

[flimsier]

if the bnpers hadn't been able to get any information they'd have been out of the swp in a week or three.

So, you think a year is too short a time to get access to information - but they would have sent infiltrators in for a week or three to try and get info - that would have been a realistic timescale for success/ failure.

You're making yourself look stupid.

 

[flimsier]

i'm saying - quite simply - that a year spent infiltrating the swp, which saw the bnpers gain positions of considerable responsibility in the swp, HAS resulted in confidential information being abstracted by the two infiltrators. without arousing any suspicion, the two were able to get onto the marxism team and to scrutinise financial records, membership lists, petitions, contact lists and so on. one would have to be a total incompetent to fail to photocopy this sort of information, to which stokes at least would have been privy. unless there is some sort of secret system within the swp where no officer - secretary, treasurer, branch organiser - ever handles information on their own, then it is blatantly clear that a considerable amount of information has gone the bnp's way.

How do you know better than people who worked with them?

Are you just upset because I suggested the SWP weren't quite as incompetent as you are desperate to make out?

 

[Pickman's model]

Absolutely.

In fact, I think if they had learned a lot, they'd be more likely to keep it quiet.

like searchlight and ray hill - and assorted other infiltrators.

the simple fact is that they had means, motive and opportunity. are you saying that these two were so incredibly incompetent that over the course of one year they were unable to filch the slightest piece of confidential information?

the upshot of these denials - especially that they never had a chance to photocopy stuff - is such toss it's not worthy of you.

the swp are such a bunch of lying fuckwits it is inconceivable that the depths of their loss will be admitted publicly - but it isn't going to go away just because they won't talk about it.

if i'm wrong, then the swp will PUBLICLY confirm that nothing went missing. the longer they keep their heads in the sand the more convinced i become that a serious breach of security has occurred.

 

[flimsier]

considering that we're talking about the swp and their grubby fronts, yes.

Right, so Red Jezza et al - forget what the SWP or RESPECT or UAF say - just listen to PM. He knows better.

 

[Pickman's model]

Right, so Red Jezza et al - forget what the SWP or RESPECT or UAF say - just listen to PM. He knows better.

fucking better than you, certainly!

 

[flimsier]

Right, so you worked with them?

Or you've spoken to those that did about what they did?

What details do you know, other than positions these two held or that that is publicly available?

Because you seem to be making definitive statements with no extra evidence at all here.

 

[flimsier]

I tried to shed a little bit of light (that doesn't necessarily defend the SWP here) with bits that I know - and you deride it as 'bollocks' because it doesn't fit with your 'fuck up at every opportunity assertions'. What are you actually adding to this debate other than: "Fuck off, the SWP really are really shit"?

 

[Pickman's model]

Right, so you worked with them?

no, i'm saying that i know better than uaf, swp, ruc etc.

Or you've spoken to those that did about what they did?

What details do you know, other than positions these two held or that that is publicly available?

Because you seem to be making definitive statements with no extra evidence at all here.

what extra evidence do you have?

i have pointed out several times on this thread, with little attention paid, that manchester swp and uaf should look again at the events of the night of the manchester uaf launch - to which the bnp turned up. i understand that at least one of the two was on the team which organised that event. are you saying that there was no possible collusion between one member of the bnp and the others who attended manchester city hall (or whatever it's called)?

are you saying that all the allegations on the bnp website are untrue?

come off it, flimsier. the swp aren't saying how much they've lost - or refuting the bnp's allegations - because it is FUCKING EMBARRASSING how much information they have lost.

when you were a member of the swp, did yr local treasurer have contact details for you?

 

[Pilgrim]

Just checked the relevent website again, and I've found nothing whatsoever from the SWP about this wholly unacceptable mess.

An apology and acceptance of this disaster should surely be forthcoming, if nothing else. Open and accountable organisation, I think not.

The primary task surely is to try and find out precisely, or at least generally, what intelligence these slime had access to, and to make those affected aware of the threat they may now face. Also, surely an open and accountable party would have made some sort of public statement by now, if only as a form of damage limitation. This still has not been forthcoming from the SWP leadership.

This whole affair reeks of unprofessional conduct and incompetance displayed by the SWP leadership. If the only statement available is from SWP internal notes, and nothing more concrete than an SWP internal inquiry is going to happen (and we all know how useful internal inquiries can be in covering up the truth) then it shows up how thoroughly incompetant and desperate to avoid the facts the SWP leadership can be.

Also, and for the umpteenth time, Swappies, this is NOT merely an SWP internal matter. If the two vermin concerned had only been after internal SWP intelligence then this would be the case. It isn't, as other groups and individuals could well be under threat as a result of this mess.

We need a full, open and accountable investigation into this affair, and we need it to happen NOW. If this is not forthcoming, then surely no groups should trust the SWP as partners in a coalition of any kind. The choice is yours, SWP leaders. Do you want to regain some credibility from this fiasco, or are you going to simply sweep it inder the carpet and pretend it hasn't happened?

One final question, if you can't spot BNP infiltrators after an entire year, and have to rely on their own paymasters to out them for you, then what possible defence can you have against State agents? Hardly the conduct of a credible revolutionary organisation, is it?

 

[flimsier]

No, the treasurer didn't have details for me at all. The branch sec did.

Anyway, neither of them were the SWP treasurer.

I have some second hand evidence from some comrades in Manchester and around. But I'm not the one saying I know the facts about how much information they have. In fact, you seem to be the only one saying you know.

You have nothing but blind assertions.

 

[flimsier]

One final question, if you can't spot BNP infiltrators after an entire year, and have to rely on their own paymasters to out them for you, then what possible defence can you have against State agents? Hardly the conduct of a credible revolutionary organisation, is it?

It's virtually impossible to stop infiltrators completely. People accept that their group is likely to be infiltrated. The Bolsheviks were and their infiltrator became their member of parliament! I heard a story about a dying anti-McDonalds group (someone PM and I mutually know was a member) that was kept going by 5 new members - who left after the trial.

That's not to say that there shouldn't be better defences, particularly with sensitive data.

The rest of your post is fine, I agree with the content if not the emphasis, though the SWP in Manchester, as I have said, are doing what you regard as 'the primary task'.

 

[Pickman's model]

I tried to shed a little bit of light (that doesn't necessarily defend the SWP here) with bits that I know - and you deride it as 'bollocks' because it doesn't fit with your 'fuck up at every opportunity assertions'. What are you actually adding to this debate other than: "Fuck off, the SWP really are really shit"?

they can't be all that good, or you'd have never left them.

yeh, the swp really are shit. and as a case in point, this infiltration proves it in ways i'd never imagined existed. if the swp were any good - hypothetically - then they would have issued a swift and cutting response to the bnp's claims. instead they have remained silent. you will look in vain on the swp website for reassurance that security remains uncompromised. you will look without success through this week's social worker, which trumpets more ruc bollox but not the most important issue facing the swp and ruc right now, which is: how much information was STOLEN by the bnp.

i can understand why the swp should remain reticent about the THEFT of its membership lists. but i find it astonishing that the ruc should not be up in arms about its members details being PURLOINED by a fascist group.

the longer the swp leave it before confirming or denying the bnp claims the more the swp and its front groups will suffer.

 

[flimsier]

Who said anything about 'all that good'? Please deal with the points raised. Not the ones you wish I'd made.

So you have nothing to add except that you think the SWP should give the BNP more publicity over this (which it seems, may be all they have)?

And as I said, they think there's nothing - I repeat nothing. I would imagine they are making sure of that fact now.

Now, I need to write a list of taxi firms/ hotel rooms/ information etc, so I'll read any further baseless assertions tomorrow (unless you've been keeping something back and you actually know something).

 

[flimsier]

the longer the swp leave it before confirming or denying the bnp claims the more the swp and its front groups will suffer.

I missed this. What claims? The BNP claim they infiltrated but make no claim about lists afaik. Do you know differently?

The claims they make in the original statement were just dull.