Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
if yr going to ignore the rules which govern university and union life, fair enough.bolshiebhoy said:
fascist infiltration of the left
- Thread starter zakawale
- Start date
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
that the nf felt that they could demonstrate with impunity near marxism, where there were hundreds - if not thousands - of alleged anti-fascists should perhaps indicate something about what they think of the swp.Ben_1982 said:
advantages of being infiltrated
Does anyone else remember a documentary about security services and the unions a while back, where someone, i believe it was tony cliff, but not sure, said they had no problems with state agents as you got a full timer, who worked twice as hard as the others, and someone else was picking up the tab, looks like thats what happened here
Does anyone else remember a documentary about security services and the unions a while back, where someone, i believe it was tony cliff, but not sure, said they had no problems with state agents as you got a full timer, who worked twice as hard as the others, and someone else was picking up the tab, looks like thats what happened here
Sorry,coming to this thread late and haven't got time to read it all so apologies if i'm repeating.
Aside from the politics of it it's utterly fucking sickening to be told that two people who you've considered mates have actually been spying on you and your friends for the BNP.Everyone i know in manchester is just utterly stunned,upset and angry.But the truth is there really was nothing anyone could have done-you can't organise political activity on the basis of being suspicious of young enthusiastic people,and there really was nothing to indicate that they were anything but enthusiastic anti-racists.Having just looked at the BNP website (hopefully for the first and last time) it just seems unreal-partly because it's so fucked up seeing people you've been out drinking with after anti-fascist leafletting posing with Griffin and Wentworth,partly because so much of it is pure fiction.i've got to say it seems like they're two naive chancers who've gone to the BNP towards the end of the year rather than it being a genuine mole operation and people should try not to panic,but it's still a total shock.
Aside from the politics of it it's utterly fucking sickening to be told that two people who you've considered mates have actually been spying on you and your friends for the BNP.Everyone i know in manchester is just utterly stunned,upset and angry.But the truth is there really was nothing anyone could have done-you can't organise political activity on the basis of being suspicious of young enthusiastic people,and there really was nothing to indicate that they were anything but enthusiastic anti-racists.Having just looked at the BNP website (hopefully for the first and last time) it just seems unreal-partly because it's so fucked up seeing people you've been out drinking with after anti-fascist leafletting posing with Griffin and Wentworth,partly because so much of it is pure fiction.i've got to say it seems like they're two naive chancers who've gone to the BNP towards the end of the year rather than it being a genuine mole operation and people should try not to panic,but it's still a total shock.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
rosa said:
It is fair enough to say that anyone can be infiltrated by people who are dedicated enough. It is stretching it too far to say that "there really was nothing anyone could have done". Perhaps you could start by encouraging political understanding rather than promoting obedience and blind enthusiasm?
rosa said:
Rosa, I am sympathetic to anyone who was personally taken in by these people, but listen to yourself for a moment.
The idea that these people started off as genuine "enthusiastic anti-racists", spent a year in the SWP and then went "to the BNP towards the end of the year" is not something you should find comforting. That would mean that they found the SWP, their first choice as a political organisation, so unconvincing in its politics that fascists seemed like a better option. Frankly, while the SWPs ability to miseducate its members never ceases to amaze me, even I find that chain of events pretty unlikely.
These people clearly were sent in as moles. The question is what can be done to limit the damage they have caused? The silence of the SWP/UAF/Respect etc so far on the issue has not been encouraging.
Nigel Irritable said:
I find myself in complete agreement with this. The incident has happened, the best that can come from an unpleasant situation (and anyone who was taken in by this pair has my complete sympathy, betrayal by people you consider friends and comrades is a betrayal of the worst kind), is that systems are put into place to prevent it happening again. Or at least to make a re-occurrence less likely.
Unfortunately, the more probable scenario is that a scapegoat will be found, who will be blamed for introducing and promoting them and things will carry on as normal. Or we will be told that the leadership knew that they were moles and was feeding them false information.
trickytree23
New Member
As an SWP and Manchester Uni SWSS member who knew these two fairly well, I was obviously shocked at the news....
Obviously in hindsight lots of things now seem rather suspicious. They both threw themselves into all anti racist and anti war activity on campus, and literally signed up to become fully paid members of the SWP on the first caucus they attended. the nature of Joe and Dianes relationship (as in, how they got to know each other) was never really clear, and it now seems possible that they met through the BNP.
To be honest, as we have an open membership policy then its impossible to totally prevent all infiltration although naturally i expect us to be far more careful nominating people for positions of responsibility. For the record all positions within SWSS and the SWP in manchester were democratically voted on.
HOWEVER it was not just the SWP that threw them into positions, they got involved with a lot of groups (MAR, STW etc).Student Union bureaucracy had a large part to play in all this.
And to be honest i dont think anyone who knew these people, from whatever left wing faction (as workers power mentioned) would have suspected them. It is not simply a case of lack of political sophistication, for as far as we were concerned we had two highly enthusiastic comrades to call apon, who seemed keen on discussing and learning more about Marxism and the dialectic, and were vocal in many of our forums. They by no means had the full support of the student left but they were trusted.
What I dont understand is why this has come out now, Finnon has a year left in university, and Diane has a further two. Seems to me like they've been screwed over by the party they were striving to help, as they will find this next year incredibly difficult to deal with, and rightly so.
Obviously in hindsight lots of things now seem rather suspicious. They both threw themselves into all anti racist and anti war activity on campus, and literally signed up to become fully paid members of the SWP on the first caucus they attended. the nature of Joe and Dianes relationship (as in, how they got to know each other) was never really clear, and it now seems possible that they met through the BNP.
To be honest, as we have an open membership policy then its impossible to totally prevent all infiltration although naturally i expect us to be far more careful nominating people for positions of responsibility. For the record all positions within SWSS and the SWP in manchester were democratically voted on.
HOWEVER it was not just the SWP that threw them into positions, they got involved with a lot of groups (MAR, STW etc).Student Union bureaucracy had a large part to play in all this.
And to be honest i dont think anyone who knew these people, from whatever left wing faction (as workers power mentioned) would have suspected them. It is not simply a case of lack of political sophistication, for as far as we were concerned we had two highly enthusiastic comrades to call apon, who seemed keen on discussing and learning more about Marxism and the dialectic, and were vocal in many of our forums. They by no means had the full support of the student left but they were trusted.
What I dont understand is why this has come out now, Finnon has a year left in university, and Diane has a further two. Seems to me like they've been screwed over by the party they were striving to help, as they will find this next year incredibly difficult to deal with, and rightly so.
all these groups are dominated by the swp that's why they were promoted through them. it's already clear how it happened. we don't know the details cause the swp can't be bothered to tell us them, but it's fundamentally a problem of that organisation, how its run and what it requires of its members. in that sense finnon and stoker were ideal swp members, which goes a long way to explaining why their cover was so good. the further problem is what's happening now. and from i've seen the swp are doing nothing now. which has compounded the problem and is frankly a disgrace. the only positive action the swp have taken up to now is to PROTECT the fascists by refusing to divulge information about them. How shit is that?
I'm not saying they were genuine anti-racists,although obviously that was how they appeared at the time.it just seems a very strange way to carry out this kind of operation if they were genuinely sent in as infiltrators.Why have the BNP announced this now,during the summer holidays,when it's gonna have the least impact? Why not announce it before the election or during freshers fair? Why identify them both rather than cause as much confusion and suspicion as possible by not saying who they are? Why paste their names and pictures on the internet when they both have to come back to manchester for at least a year? Fuck knows what actually happened,i'm just speculating,which probably isn't helping anyone but it's a bit difficult not to when you've been unable to think about anything else all week.But if people want to say it's all the swp's fault,fine,you can't make me feel any worse than i already do.
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
edited out as I suddenly realised me stupidityeditor said:There's quite a few of these sad, friendless, fellas in and around this thread (and others) right now.
Say hello when you spot one!
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Red Jezza said:
alphaDelta
◘◘\«ˆ»/◘◘
I only came here for a replacement horse.
I take great interest in this BNP student nonsense, not least because it centres around my university, and some of my friends (thankfully not these lovely moles). Personally I find it rather amusing - Their "infiltration" of the SWP strikes me as about as useful and effective as me infiltrating Spar in the middle of the afternoon and secretly filling the shelves for them.
As for the Manchester SWP's security; in the end, it's a sliding scale. You either make it inherently easy for anyone to join, but run this risk, or you hold your meetings in Russian at 2am on a dinghy off Salford Quays, but only have one member. Maybe they bollocksed it up and should have seen the signs but retrospect's a beautiful thing and we've all been screwed over at some point.
What does bother me first of all is that these students have somehow fallen in with a clearly fascist group. Whether this is down to some misguided idiot's misconception of what a student should do with their time, or some deeper background (e.g. the BNP's activity in his home of Sunderland), I don't know. They're both as dangerous, but the former means that exploitation is being carried out on campus, which to me is more important. Either way it's naive of me to think "this shouldn't happen to a student" but frankly I've never heard of anyone in my position actively engaging in anything so stupid.
Next is that a (thankfully small) number of these clowns are deliberately acting in a comparatively complex way against other students. By this I mean not just the SWP - who I don't particularly care for - or the Union and its activities, but critically, what it is to be a student, make your own choices and act on them. Their actions are not the same as, for example, the recent infamous exposees of the BNP by outside elements, for the simple reason that they neither came away with any revelations nor provided any beneficial non-partisan service.
So what should happen to them? Personally I've no idea. Initially I'm of the opinion that I'd love to see them removed from their respective universities, whether that be through some policy decision or a randomly chosen technicality. However, you then have to wonder what will happen next. £10,000 debt for nothing, unemployed and unemployable, and entirely ostracised by all their former friends - except for one group - the BNP. Serves them right, undoubtedly, but it doesn't take a genius to see the logical progression from there.
Manchester's largely, and to its credit, a fine multi-cultural and tolerant environment. However to those aware of it, what these two have done and stand for is unforgiveable. Naturally any continuation there is going to be incredibly difficult. They are an embarassment to everyone associated with them. However, are they a lost cause, or is it sensible to expend effort on actually educating them the conventional way? (no bricks)
Finally, hare-brained as it is, I didn't think the BNP were so simultaneously stupid and yet actually capable of such a thing. I guess we'd better watch out, or it's off to BNP Birmingham 5 with the lot of us. Too bad I've already left...
I take great interest in this BNP student nonsense, not least because it centres around my university, and some of my friends (thankfully not these lovely moles). Personally I find it rather amusing - Their "infiltration" of the SWP strikes me as about as useful and effective as me infiltrating Spar in the middle of the afternoon and secretly filling the shelves for them.
As for the Manchester SWP's security; in the end, it's a sliding scale. You either make it inherently easy for anyone to join, but run this risk, or you hold your meetings in Russian at 2am on a dinghy off Salford Quays, but only have one member. Maybe they bollocksed it up and should have seen the signs but retrospect's a beautiful thing and we've all been screwed over at some point.
What does bother me first of all is that these students have somehow fallen in with a clearly fascist group. Whether this is down to some misguided idiot's misconception of what a student should do with their time, or some deeper background (e.g. the BNP's activity in his home of Sunderland), I don't know. They're both as dangerous, but the former means that exploitation is being carried out on campus, which to me is more important. Either way it's naive of me to think "this shouldn't happen to a student" but frankly I've never heard of anyone in my position actively engaging in anything so stupid.
Next is that a (thankfully small) number of these clowns are deliberately acting in a comparatively complex way against other students. By this I mean not just the SWP - who I don't particularly care for - or the Union and its activities, but critically, what it is to be a student, make your own choices and act on them. Their actions are not the same as, for example, the recent infamous exposees of the BNP by outside elements, for the simple reason that they neither came away with any revelations nor provided any beneficial non-partisan service.
So what should happen to them? Personally I've no idea. Initially I'm of the opinion that I'd love to see them removed from their respective universities, whether that be through some policy decision or a randomly chosen technicality. However, you then have to wonder what will happen next. £10,000 debt for nothing, unemployed and unemployable, and entirely ostracised by all their former friends - except for one group - the BNP. Serves them right, undoubtedly, but it doesn't take a genius to see the logical progression from there.
Manchester's largely, and to its credit, a fine multi-cultural and tolerant environment. However to those aware of it, what these two have done and stand for is unforgiveable. Naturally any continuation there is going to be incredibly difficult. They are an embarassment to everyone associated with them. However, are they a lost cause, or is it sensible to expend effort on actually educating them the conventional way? (no bricks)
Finally, hare-brained as it is, I didn't think the BNP were so simultaneously stupid and yet actually capable of such a thing. I guess we'd better watch out, or it's off to BNP Birmingham 5 with the lot of us. Too bad I've already left...
chegrimandi
associated with adultery
is it worth me reading this thread?
could anyone give a brief synopsis if they can be arsed....
could anyone give a brief synopsis if they can be arsed....
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
first two pages maybe.chegrimandi said:
two bnp supporterss joined the swp and were rapidly 'promoted' to various dull posts in other groups the swp participates in. they may well, therefore have had access to various mailing lists which would have undoubtedly been passed on to the bnp at large.
the swp has issued a bland statement saying 'we don't do nowt illegal, so we don't really give a monkeys'.
there is some debate over how easilly any other leftist organisation could be infiltrated, and over the swp's tendency to promote someone for 'being keen', rather than through agreeing with/understanding their politics.
i think that's about it.
Synopsis (conclusions not mine but what I think the feeling has been on the thread):
Two SWP members in Manchester SWSS and SWP are really BNP members.
They've had minor positions of responsibility - though more than you'd expect year long members have had.
Some discussion as to how serious them having lists of names, addresses etc is (conclusion ranges from pretty serious to very serious).
Some discussion as to the likelihood of them having names and addresses (conclusion ranges from virtually nil [SWP] to definite [smashthestate/ some others]
Some discussion about whether the SWP should have candidate membership/ more stringent security checks. Conclusion, yes.
Some discussion about what to do next and an argument with a right winger on how appropriate 'no platform' is (imo missing a good opportunity to hear what past caring suggests - I think he was 'crowded out' of the debate [not meant in a negative way towards pc]).
Some people expressing concern that the fash may have their addresses.
One of the infiltrators came on the thread and said 'It wasn't personal, it was political' then edited her post and fucked off (if it was her).
Quite a number of people astounded these people think they can finish their degrees (which seems to be the consensus of what they are planning to do).
And then some random posts at the end.
I might have missed something...?!?
Two SWP members in Manchester SWSS and SWP are really BNP members.
They've had minor positions of responsibility - though more than you'd expect year long members have had.
Some discussion as to how serious them having lists of names, addresses etc is (conclusion ranges from pretty serious to very serious).
Some discussion as to the likelihood of them having names and addresses (conclusion ranges from virtually nil [SWP] to definite [smashthestate/ some others]
Some discussion about whether the SWP should have candidate membership/ more stringent security checks. Conclusion, yes.
Some discussion about what to do next and an argument with a right winger on how appropriate 'no platform' is (imo missing a good opportunity to hear what past caring suggests - I think he was 'crowded out' of the debate [not meant in a negative way towards pc]).
Some people expressing concern that the fash may have their addresses.
One of the infiltrators came on the thread and said 'It wasn't personal, it was political' then edited her post and fucked off (if it was her).
Quite a number of people astounded these people think they can finish their degrees (which seems to be the consensus of what they are planning to do).
And then some random posts at the end.
I might have missed something...?!?
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