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Er, they burned the Danish embassy: did anyone notice?

Johnny Canuck2 said:
Let's have credit where credit is due: I introduced the concept of the circle jerk to this bb, long ago.
Apols :D

BTW i was referring to the yam and your arrival not renty's. It's lost in translation but smugness is universally understood. ;)
He's a 7am UK timer. I Have him for breakfast usually. It's such a nice gentle start to the day :D
 
friedaweed said:
:rolleyes:
Look :mad: How many fucking hobnobs will it take to get you to drop your persecution complex. Now make yourself comfy whilst i make you another cup of tea. It you kick your socks off I'm a dab hand at reflexology too.

No body has a problem with you posting here. It is just as much your space as it is anyone else's. Well unless Ed boots your arse out of here that is. However if you insist on posting swooping generalizations about a religious group of people who are representative in many nations across the globe then i suggest you get a thicker hide or learn to duck and cover.

Keep posting nobody's said you're not welcome ;) But if you want to post contensious POV then be prepared to defend your arguament instead of rolling round crying about the verbal onslaught your views might recieve.

Thanks for the hobnobs, I am feeling very chilled out about things.

I have thought about the whole thing and realize I was wanting someone to ask me why I felt the way I did. Or what lead me to that conclusion. Then I could have said explain why I was concerned about these issues. and learned some different perspectives and maybe delt with my negative feelings. Okay I realize that I was rather naive now.

I did catch a lot of abuse, perhaps fairly. That was not the problem the thing that was horrible was feeling as if I did not exist and had no rights to express my feelings because I had been labeled a racist by people.

The reason I have been banging away on these boards is that, the Muslim issue is causing a lot of people stress, worry anxiety let alone anything else, But because of the politically correct climate it is forbidden to even hint you have bad feelings. This is leading to a growing feeling of injustice and resentment.

I think that a lot of people are scared of these "right on" smart arses, and their sneering abuse to anyone they perceive as being racist.

I am a fighter for justice, and I am taking on these self appointed judges of all that is right and good. This is bigger that me, I think these people, are causing massive harm and resentment, and by forcing people to suppress there legitimate concerns are making future conflict almost certain.
 
Greebozz said:
I am a fighter for justice
Smilie19sop.gif
mmmmkay.
 
Greebozz said:
Thanks for the hobnobs, I am feeling very chilled out about things.

I have thought about the whole thing and realize I was wanting someone to ask me why I felt the way I did. Or what lead me to that conclusion. Then I could have said explain why I was concerned about these issues. and learned some different perspectives and maybe delt with my negative feelings. Okay I realize that I was rather naive now.

I did catch a lot of abuse, perhaps fairly. That was not the problem the thing that was horrible was feeling as if I did not exist and had no rights to express my feelings because I had been labeled a racist by people.

The reason I have been banging away on these boards is that, the Muslim issue is causing a lot of people stress, worry anxiety let alone anything else, But because of the politically correct climate it is forbidden to even hint you have bad feelings. This is leading to a growing feeling of injustice and resentment.

I think that a lot of people are scared of these "right on" smart arses, and their sneering abuse to anyone they perceive as being racist.

I am a fighter for justice, and I am taking on these self appointed judges of all that is right and good. This is bigger that me, I think these people, are causing massive harm and resentment, and by forcing people to suppress there legitimate concerns are making future conflict almost certain.
Fair enough and yes it does get a bit lively in here but a lot of it is tongue and cheek. There are a couple of posters here who do promote the idea that the views of Islamic fundamentalists are the views of all Muslims.
You'll figure out who they are.
Maybe because of the generalisations you made in your OP you were perceived to be aligning yourself with those views. Maybe you're just trying to figure it all out like you say

Do you think that what we are doing in the middle east is right?

Post away anyway. Don't let it put you off :D

There's more tea in the pot. ;)
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
The 'cartoons row' should be discussed in light of the findings in this thread:
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=150711

that the cartoons were published in an Egyptian newspaper, months ago, without so much as a murmur.

Why, in your view, should they be discussed "in light of [that] thread"? From what I read of that thread, it wasn't actually going anywhere. What's wrong with incorporating the grain of information in that thread into this one? Or is there a motive that you aren't telling us about? Is there, for example, an Zionist thread you could spin into it?
 
Wow, I am gone for a day and look at what all happens. :rolleyes:
The cartoon thing has shown Again how wrong and down right nieve many of the "politically progressive" posters are in their support for the islamic fundementalists.
See, the more right wing you get or more left wing you get ya allways end up in the same place.
When a group of people want to force everyone else to think a certain way they are Wrong.
No matter what.
all the carrying on about the cartoon doesnt have anything to do with the actual cartoon.
it is about Who is going to change For Who?
Are we going to be extra careful to not publish anything that may offend Islam?
Is there going to be a special law in Denmark? Sweden? Everywhere?
To APPEASE............ The Muslims????????????????
Mmmmmmm (a WWII reference)
Do the Muslims have anti christian, western, UK or US cartoons/comments in their papers? Websites? TV and Radio?
Yup, All the time
Would the Muslims change What they Talk about if we burned their embassys in our countrys?
Mmmmmmm

Ok Ok not just any old Muslim just the "bad" muslims :rolleyes:

Do they look at the Uk and or the US as "All bad" or do they ever concider that not all christians/western people are bad?

THEY do not think of us in the same way that so many here propose that we must think of them.

Could I go to Saudi Arabia and Protest Islam? the way Muslims protest America, and Christianity?
Never in a million years.

It is not about the cartoon it is about Who is going to change for Who?
If We change for them they Win and we loose.
Especially since it is under threat

We (Europe and America) need to Stop changeing for them and require THEM to adopt OUR standards and language when they are in OUR country.
one of those standards is Freedon of expression.
The cartoons where a free expression, in a Free country

THAT is the actual issue..............
 
Rentonite, you really are a bit more of a twit than I once gave you credit for.

Drop the whole us/them thing and at least half of the generalisations and then we'll talk.

And what is so "misunderstood" about you anyway. There's nothing much to misunderstand. You seem to be painting yourself clearly as a twit very well to me.
 
winterinmoscow said:
Rentonite, you really are a bit more of a twit than I once gave you credit for.

Drop the whole us/them thing and at least half of the generalisations and then we'll talk.

And what is so "misunderstood" about you anyway. There's nothing much to misunderstand. You seem to be painting yourself clearly as a twit very well to me.

In the last analysis, what is incorrect about what he said in that post?
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
In the last analysis, what is incorrect about what he said in that post?

Well, the whole Us and Them thing kinda gets to me. The Win/lose analogy. The tone of it frankly stinks... do I need to go on? Can't be arsed to waste my time really.
 
"The cartoons in the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten raise the most important question of our times: freedom of expression. Are we in the west going to cave into pressure from societies with a medieval mindset, or are we going to defend our most precious freedom -- freedom of expression, a freedom for which thousands of people sacrificed their lives?

A democracy cannot survive long without freedom of expression, the freedom to argue, to dissent, even to insult and offend. It is a freedom sorely lacking in the Islamic world, and without it Islam will remain unassailed in its dogmatic, fanatical, medieval fortress; ossified, totalitarian and intolerant. Without this fundamental freedom, Islam will continue to stifle thought, human rights, individuality; originality and truth."


http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,398853,00.html
 
"Whether or not the Danish cartoonists crossed the line from mockery to malice, Westerners understand their motives. In the West, satire is a vehicle for social, moral and political correction. Exposing the gap between a person's or group's ideals and the reality of their aberrant behaviour, satire is routinely employed to prick ballooning egos or deride hypocrisy. The object is to remind the target of his deviance from communal behavioural norms — our norms, that is — and bring him to heel.

In the Danish case, the cartoons represent the common Western view of Islamist terror as a grave crime against humanity and an act of religious hypocrisy. Through public shaming, a respected mode of chastisement in the West, the cartoonists sought to "punish" the bad behaviour of Islamist terrorists with a view to rehabilitation.

Western religious and political public figures have developed a thick skin and a high tolerance for quite vicious caricatures. I remember feeling a grudging admiration for Louise Beaudoin, head of the "language police" in Quebec in the '90s, when she was portrayed in a famous Gazette cartoon as a leather-clad, whip-wielding Nazi dominatrix (I thought Aislin went too far) and to her credit took it in stride. The cartoon aroused fury in sovereigntist ranks, but served to modify Beaudoin's militant rhetoric and alert her to the counter-productive effects of her anglophobia. It was both savagely funny and corrective.

Public shaming, however, can't work on a target that doesn't "get" irony. Sometimes, we forget that irony is a peculiarly Western critical marinade, flourishing in societies that value the unfettered freedom of reason and the imagination. Irony is not understood by solipsists and is viewed as a subversive element by totalitarian regimes (which it is). Ironic humour goes underground as a cherished symbol of intellectual dissent among oppressed populations — explaining for example the disproportionate number of Jews in comedy — but withers among the literalist flock serving unitary ideologies like Communism or doctrinaire Islam.

Consequently, free-thinking Westerners see ironic humour in Muslims' rage over their religious ox being gored even as the goring of Christian and Jewish oxen is a routine feature of life in Islam-dominated societies; and for satirists, this is but one more reason to mock Islamists. Islamic societies, on the other hand, see only the public shaming component in irony-based criticism, taking it as a gratuitous act of humiliation; and for literalists, it is but one more reason to visit revenge on the West.

Satire is funniest and most effective when its target is capable of modifying the behaviour the ridicule throws into relief. Abraham's father "got" the irony of Abraham's satire, and modified his views. But where no correction is possible, there is no humour — for a cartoonist, the most offensive crime of all."

http://catholiceducation.org/articles/media/me0055.html
 
Well I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to show, JC2, because your opinion isn't there. If you'd care to enlighten me...?
 
winterinmoscow said:
Well I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to show, JC2, because your opinion isn't there. If you'd care to enlighten me...?

My opinion is evident in lots of places. These are articles by authors whose opinions are also worth considering.

My opinion in a nutshell on these two articles: I agree with them.
 
Rentonite said:
Relentless shite

Would the Muslims change What they Talk about if we burned their embassys in our countrys?
Mmmmmmm

...........
I tell you what fuckwit :rolleyes: You pop down the 'Muslim Embassy' tomorrow and set fire to it. :rolleyes:
My you are bright :D
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
"Whether or not the Danish cartoonists crossed the line from mockery to malice, Westerners understand their motives. In the West, satire is a vehicle for social, moral and political correction. Exposing the gap between a person's or group's ideals and the reality of their aberrant behaviour, satire is routinely employed to prick ballooning egos or deride hypocrisy. The object is to remind the target of his deviance from communal behavioural norms — our norms, that is — and bring him to heel.

In the Danish case, the cartoons represent the common Western view of Islamist terror as a grave crime against humanity and an act of religious hypocrisy. Through public shaming, a respected mode of chastisement in the West, the cartoonists sought to "punish" the bad behaviour of Islamist terrorists with a view to rehabilitation.

Western religious and political public figures have developed a thick skin and a high tolerance for quite vicious caricatures. I remember feeling a grudging admiration for Louise Beaudoin, head of the "language police" in Quebec in the '90s, when she was portrayed in a famous Gazette cartoon as a leather-clad, whip-wielding Nazi dominatrix (I thought Aislin went too far) and to her credit took it in stride. The cartoon aroused fury in sovereigntist ranks, but served to modify Beaudoin's militant rhetoric and alert her to the counter-productive effects of her anglophobia. It was both savagely funny and corrective.

Public shaming, however, can't work on a target that doesn't "get" irony. Sometimes, we forget that irony is a peculiarly Western critical marinade, flourishing in societies that value the unfettered freedom of reason and the imagination. Irony is not understood by solipsists and is viewed as a subversive element by totalitarian regimes (which it is). Ironic humour goes underground as a cherished symbol of intellectual dissent among oppressed populations — explaining for example the disproportionate number of Jews in comedy — but withers among the literalist flock serving unitary ideologies like Communism or doctrinaire Islam.

Consequently, free-thinking Westerners see ironic humour in Muslims' rage over their religious ox being gored even as the goring of Christian and Jewish oxen is a routine feature of life in Islam-dominated societies; and for satirists, this is but one more reason to mock Islamists. Islamic societies, on the other hand, see only the public shaming component in irony-based criticism, taking it as a gratuitous act of humiliation; and for literalists, it is but one more reason to visit revenge on the West.

Satire is funniest and most effective when its target is capable of modifying the behaviour the ridicule throws into relief. Abraham's father "got" the irony of Abraham's satire, and modified his views. But where no correction is possible, there is no humour — for a cartoonist, the most offensive crime of all."

http://catholiceducation.org/articles/media/me0055.html

C + P = JC2 :D
 
friedaweed said:
I tell you what fuckwit :rolleyes: You pop down the 'Muslim Embassy' tomorrow and set fire to it. :rolleyes:
My you are bright :D

What: tit for tat with the Danish embassy?

Any comment on the article by ibn Warraq, which I posted above?
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
What: tit for tat with the Danish embassy?

Any comment on the article by ibn Warraq, which I posted above?
Not yet. Will have a look at it though.
Been out boozing on fine ales ;)
 
This seems quite possible to me. Chances are it won't happen, but if it does I want you guys to know about this warning.

from a source (intelligence insider):

The Mohamed cartoons are just the visible tip of a dangerous iceberg. They were artistically and humorously weak, unjustifiable, crass, insensitive and apparently very stupid. Free speech does not mean you can say what you like with impunity.

The reaction would have been well understood by the publishing paper. This was most likely a totally orchestrated event. Orchestrated not only as to the cause - the publishing - but also the effect - the protest - facilitated with equal advance planning through prior knowledge. Political agitators along with a foolish and impressionable rent-a-crowd - and the Lebanon, like anywhere, has it's quota of hotheads.

Flemming Rose, the JP cultural editor responsible for the offensive anti-Muslim cartoons, is a supporter of Neo-Con Daniel Pipes "clash of civilizations" .
http://mathaba.net/0_index.shtml?x=508448

So why would they do that? Well for one thing Denmark's troops have been suffering causalities in Iraq. I know their military contingent is only small in numbers but their very presence, and thereby support, is more important than troop numbers. Indeed recently it has been rumoured the Danish troops are to be withdrawn and meanwhile public support at home has been slipping further.
http://english.people.com.cn/200511/23/eng20051123_223317.html

This series of events has made the Danish public (and many more across Europe) enraged. They realise the cartoons were ill advised but they are indignant at the disproportionate violence wreaked as a result. The effect is now that they are back on-side - this has been Denmark's 911 wake-up call - Yes ? Well I am sorry but no, not yet. I have a bad feeling there is more to come. Remember Spain was all for pulling out of Iraq before the 311 Madrid train bombs.

The wake-up call is to be directed at all of Europe as the US Neo-con Israeli Zionist collusion cannot hope to muster sufficient troops to follow-up the attack they would like to deal to Iran - bunker buster bombs on all major military and so-called nuclear research sites followed by a massive (European?) armed force of 'peace keepers'.

I have a particular theory that the date of September the 11th was not a random choice. 911 has a deep subliminal emotive trigger value to the people of the US - 911 is their emergency telephone number. This by my measure would not be the date of choice of terrorists, OK they would perhaps want a date that could be remembered but since they would not be in control of the media to reminded people of the event I think they would take a memorable date as being a small detail.

I believe 911 has connotations of fear, mortal peril and most of all is the moment one abdicates decision making responsibility to authority. That is not what terrorists want - they do not want people abdicating to authority, they want people to tell authority what to do; 'Stop the terrorists - do what they ask'.

But the term 911 has been the reveille for the people of the world despite it being of less subliminal significance to people from outside of the US. The Neo-com corporate media propaganda constantly references 911, using the term to frighten the US 'everyday folk' and keep them supporting the war.

Indeed 911 was referenced by '311' and less commonly realised 311 occured 911 days after Sept the 11th 2001 (911 days and 18 hours or so in fact).

The Bali ONE took place 999 days before the London 7/7 attack. (999 is the UK emergency number).

Bali TWO took place on 1/10 - ( 110 is the police telephone number in Bali).

So where does this lead me. Well I have considered that if the above conjecture is correct then when the time comes for Europe to be brought onside with the US / Zionist assault on Arab and Islamic nations. They will have to have a 911 of their own since London's 7/7 did not do the trick for them. So 11.2 is a very strong possibility since it offers a number and date of subliminal relevance across Europe, 112 is the pan-European emergency telephone number and of cause the 11th of February is written 11.2 in Europe.

I will not be taking a break in Copenhagen this weekend - just to be on the safe side - thank you very much.
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
What: tit for tat with the Danish embassy?

Any comment on the article by ibn Warraq, which I posted above?

You spectacularly miss the point - wilfully and deliberately.

Do you think there is a Muslim embassy, Johnny?
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
My opinion is evident in lots of places. These are articles by authors whose opinions are also worth considering.

My opinion in a nutshell on these two articles: I agree with them.


Neither of those posts contained a scintilla of input from you: it is all cut and paste.

This is another reason you ignore me, because I point out your weasling dishonesty.

Have you got any thoughts of your own or do you need to be programmed?

How's Mirielle Silcoff these days? Still bashing the French?
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
So: did you read them?
The one by Ibn Warraq comes across as a tad sensationalist. But then he has a self-confessed agenda doesn't he.
Are we in the west going to cave into pressure from societies with a medieval mindset, or are we going to defend our most precious freedom -- freedom of expression, a freedom for which thousands of people sacrificed their lives?
Which is great if this were just an issue of freedom of speech but it's just the tip of a the iceberg isn't it. One were Islam as a faith and Muslims globally are in the line of fire of constant propaganda relating to the wests (Mainly US & UK) war on terror. I think you have to look at it in the wider context. Sure the embassy attacks set only against the cartoons look like a massive over reaction but in the context of whats happening globally it's not surprising. The cartoons do seem to be the straw that broke the camels back to me.

If you want to treat it as an overreaction (Which it's being portrayed) then lets examine why people are over reacting? ;)

It's an interesting read but it fails to recognise the context in which these things are happening. It doesn't change anything. It's just a spin on the whole saga which conveniently leaves out a large part of the picture.

I could go on but it's cake baking day :D

I'll read the other one when we've made the filling. ;)

you might like this
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/relrpt/stories/s386913.htm
 
friedaweed said:
The one by Ibn Warraq comes across as a tad sensationalist. But then he has a self-confessed agenda doesn't he.

Which is great if this were just an issue of freedom of speech but it's just the tip of a the iceberg isn't it. One were Islam as a faith and Muslims globally are in the line of fire of constant propaganda relating to the wests (Mainly US & UK) war on terror. I think you have to look at it in the wider context. Sure the embassy attacks set only against the cartoons look like a massive over reaction but in the context of whats happening globally it's not surprising. The cartoons do seem to be the straw that broke the camels back to me.

If you want to treat it as an overreaction (Which it's being portrayed) then lets examine why people are over reacting? ;)

It's an interesting read but it fails to recognise the context in which these things are happening. It doesn't change anything. It's just a spin on the whole saga which conveniently leaves out a large part of the picture.

I could go on but it's cake baking day :D

I'll read the other one when we've made the filling. ;)

you might like this
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/relrpt/stories/s386913.htm


*patiently waits for the icing on the cake ;) *
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
Again this article fails to acknowledge the context in which these things are happening. It's all fairly well for some nice Jewish grandma to say that Muslims don't have a sense of humour. But then she's not on the receiving end of it is she. I don't mean the jokes by the way.
She's just another person who has her own agenda and subsequent spin on the matter and can't be arsed contextualising why there may be an adverse reaction to something oh so petty like a few little jokes about big Mo.

Like I've said it's more than the cartoons and if you haven't figured that out yet then your unlikely to soon.

I bet she makes some nice chicken soup though our Barbara. ;)
More good stuff from Babs:
So I'm a 'Homophobe,' Am I?
The myth of Israeli 'apartheid'

Now do you want some tea with this cake guys :D
 
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