Paris burns after police murder youth

[pbsmooth]

hmm not all are like that but a worrying few identity with high earners and bankers because the low tax status

you not like musk because you pay the higher tax bracket

don't really understand what you're trying to say there

but I have a bridge to sell you

 

[Artaxerxes]

It's all real work .It's putting food on your families table. I don't differentiate between working in a call centre or working fir yourself. We are all trying to keep our heads above the parapet.

I mean you literally said

Building trades are the working class natural work not sat in call centre's or working on shop floor's.

Which implies you do

 

[Ax^]

don't really understand what you're trying to say there

but I have a bridge to sell you

know a few builder and tradesmen who are so anti tax they support massive company and private individuals avoid paying tax because they see themselves as business men or women and trying to explain why it's different is a pain in the arse


similar talking to my da about immigration
too many foreigners coming over here taking job

"remember we are irish right "

 

[mojo pixy]

The conservatives encouraged the atomisation of the work force through self employment to weaken the unions and ergo the organised working class. I don’t see how that suddenly makes them not working class anymore simply because they have to buy their own tools.

So is person X who owns their tools and van and arranges / manages their own clientele in the same or another class as person Y who works PAYE shifts in a workplace owned by someone who supplies the clients and equipment?

 

[Pickman's model]

So is person X who owns their tools and van and arranges / manages their own clientele in the same or another class as person Y who works PAYE shifts in a workplace owned by someone who supplies the clients and equipment?

Yes

 

[mojo pixy]

Yes

Yes, it was a poorly worded question. It was meant as an either/or, either the same class or another class (without talking about identity). And there's another thread for it, I'm not keen to derail this one too badly.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Yes, it was a poorly worded question. It was meant as an either/or, either the same class or another class (without talking about identity). And there's another thread for it, I'm not keen to derail this one too badly.

I’ve done both (sans owning vehicle). Have I shifted class and back again?

 

[ska invita]

I’ve done both (sans owning vehicle). Have I shifted class and back again?

your work-class is defined by your work and in the modern world peoples work conditions can change quite drastically, so yeah, positions change as work life changes... sounds like youve had a shift to me, there might be some grey areas and overlaps but not many working class jobs that earn 60k

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I think most people on here know pretty much fuck all about the building trade.

 

[mojo pixy]

I’ve done both (sans owning vehicle). Have I shifted class and back again?

Well I guess so. I suspect many of us change economic class through life, multiple times even.

 

[MickiQ]

I’m sorry; that was the sane approach to buckets taken by some, including I think you, but there was a definite line taken by several that a window cleaner who owned their own bucket could no no longer considered working class. Let alone one of those long pole things….

Three guys turn up in a van and clean my windows with those long extending pole thingies fed from a tank, the guy who drives also owns the business and collects payment but does no actual cleaning. The sharp divide between the working class and the boss class is laid bare for all to see.

 

[A380]

Anyone one know what’s happening in France currently?

Stop derailing the thread!!!!!

 

[A380]

Three guys turn up in a van and clean my windows with those long extending pole thingies fed from a tank, the guy who drives also owns the business and collects payment but does no actual cleaning. The sharp divide between the working class and the boss class is laid bare for all to see.

Sounds like a waste of his time to just hang about all day. He should either be delivering extra work, laying off one of the employees or be on the golf course. With this flawed business model I give them three weeks.

 

[A380]

I think most people on here know pretty much fuck all about the building trade.

Basically I think most on heres experience doesn’t extend much beyond putting on what they think is a working class accent and trying to engage the trade in ‘footy banter’ much to the bemused amusement of the builder concerned…

 

[Serge Forward]

I think most people on here know pretty much fuck all about the building trade.

I worked in the building trade and know fuck all about it.

 

[belboid]

It's pretty basic. Class isn't defined by the work you do, that is almost entirely irrelevant. It is defined by how you relate to the means of production (do you own your own tools?) and hence your relation to other workers. The material interests of the self-employed and the employee are not the same. As employee's, your enemy is the boss. As a self-employed person, your enemy is another self-employed person who may undercut you.

Of course these days there is loads of false self-employment about and those in that situation are still effectively working-class. But once you work for yourself you take on most of the problems that other bosses have to face.

 

[Pickman's model]

Basically I think most on heres experience doesn’t extend much beyond putting on what they think is a working class accent and trying to engage the trade in ‘footy banter’ much to the bemused amusement of the builder concerned…

I think you may be extrapolating from your own experience

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Western liberals (and Macron was their great hope once) used to piously condemn China, Russia and elsewhere for its censorship or restriction of access to social media. The point made was that the actions of these reactionary regimes was further evidence of the superiority of social and economic liberal system and its 'freedoms'.

But, when social and economic liberalism's own chickens come home to roost, and the heat from the blowback of 40 years of the neo-liberal order becomes a bit too much they demonstrate that they in fact, have a lot in common with those they once condemned:

French government could cut off social media during unrest, says Macron

 

[pbsmooth]

It's pretty basic. Class isn't defined by the work you do, that is almost entirely irrelevant. It is defined by how you relate to the means of production (do you own your own tools?) and hence your relation to other workers. The material interests of the self-employed and the employee are not the same. As employee's, your enemy is the boss. As a self-employed person, your enemy is another self-employed person who may undercut you.

Of course these days there is loads of false self-employment about and those in that situation are still effectively working-class. But once you work for yourself you take on most of the problems that other bosses have to face.

I must tell my privately educated investment banker friend who gets 200k bonuses that he's now working class!

 

[belboid]

I must tell my privately educated investment banker friend who gets 200k bonuses that he's now working class!

If he is selling his labour in order to earn his income, then he is indeed working class. Just because you are working class, it doesn't mean you are not a blood sucking parasite who deserves to be shot. Please do tell him that too

 

[Pickman's model]

Western liberals (and Macron was their great hope once) used to piously condemn China, Russia and elsewhere for its censorship or restriction of access to social media. The point made was that the actions of these reactionary regimes was further evidence of the superiority of social and economic liberal system and its 'freedoms'.

But, when social and economic liberalism's own chickens come home to roost, and the heat from the blowback of 40 years of the neo-liberal order becomes a bit too much they demonstrate that they in fact, have a lot in common with those they once condemned:

French government could cut off social media during unrest, says Macron

back in the day human rights were deployed as something 'we' had that the ussr and red China didn't. But it was as much of an illusion as the claim there are no political police in Britain. It's just our thugs are better mannered than their ones, that's the only difference

 

[Ax^]

Basically I think most on heres experience doesn’t extend much beyond putting on what they think is a working class accent and trying to engage the trade in ‘footy banter’ much to the bemused amusement of the builder concerned…

could be worse family gathering let's all talk about the building trade for fucking hours and then asking what you do and eyes glazing over 2 minutes into explaining it

 

[The39thStep]

Basically I think most on heres experience doesn’t extend much beyond putting on what they think is a working class accent and trying to engage the trade in ‘footy banter’ much to the bemused amusement of the builder concerned…

Aw wight mate

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Can you not have your own business and be working class?

Not all businesses are run by multinational corporations.

I've had my own business for last 15 year's I'm not rich ,still struggle in the winter due to nature if the work. Roofing.

IMHO, it depends on how your business is organized. Around here the usual arrangement is a white guy shows up to bid the job in a pickup truck and workclothes. You never see him again and you certainly won't see him up on your roof. When the crew comes its all Mexican immigrants. Usually, they have the one guy bidding jobs for several crews at once. In that specific arrangement, I would consider the white guy management and the crew working class.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

It's pretty basic. Class isn't defined by the work you do, that is almost entirely irrelevant. It is defined by how you relate to the means of production (do you own your own tools?) and hence your relation to other workers. The material interests of the self-employed and the employee are not the same. As employee's, your enemy is the boss. As a self-employed person, your enemy is another self-employed person who may undercut you.

Of course these days there is loads of false self-employment about and those in that situation are still effectively working-class. But once you work for yourself you take on most of the problems that other bosses have to face.

Plenty of people cards in have to supply their own tools. So that isn’t really a signifier. There’ll be a set rate if self employed via an agency also. Those tend to be worse off as not unionised so much.
So ‘self employed’ isn’t a useful term particularly.
A business owner perhaps, although both of the above often do private work also.

 

[belboid]

'if self-employed by an agency' - that's a contradiction in terms? It's being employed.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

'if self-employed by an agency' - that's a contradiction in terms? It's being employed.

This is what I mean when I say folk on here know Fuck all about how construction employment works.

 

[The39thStep]

Does anyone remember Cameron's 'I'm Dave' period where he boasted that people frequently thought/mistook him for a plumber?

 

[Ax^]

think he was mistakenly hearing plumber instead of pig fucker

all in the accents

 

[Artaxerxes]

No Dave they called you a plumhead, you really need to focus on your comprehension of non-Etonian accents