Paris burns after police murder youth

[Elohim]

what I'm getting at here is that the shift from employed working class to business owning results in individualist interests taking priority for an individual leading to alignment with the right.
the tory government's term for these people is "working people"

I know alot on the left who are self employed builders, plumbers, etc .

Building trades are the working class natural work not sat in call centre's or working on shop floor's.

I know many anarchists who are self employed painters and decorators etc.

Are you any less working class if you work for yourself instead of a pay master?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

So by ‘working class business’ you mean someone’s van?

 

[Artaxerxes]

I know alot on the left who are self employed builders, plumbers, etc .

Building trades are the working class natural work not sat in call centre's or working on shop floor's.

I know many anarchists who are self employed painters and decorators etc.

Are you any less working class if you work for yourself instead of a pay master?

“Not real work” innit

If your working minimum wage for someone else and having to do mentally draining shifts your doing a working class job

 

[ska invita]

I know alot on the left who are self employed builders, plumbers, etc .

Building trades are the working class natural work not sat in call centre's or working on shop floor's.

I know many anarchists who are self employed painters and decorators etc.

Are you any less working class if you work for yourself instead of a pay master?

its an interesting topic, has come up on the boards most recently on this thread (and at different points within it)...

Why do people from privileged class backgrounds often misidentify their origins as working class?

Once again I am begging people not to assume that everyone who disagrees with Marx has not read Marx. Capital is not a factual account of the world, it's one way of viewing what he believed to be happening at the time and the consequences of it. People have found Capital useful in various ways...

www.urban75.net

including this anarchist defence of the petit b

class aspects of rioting have been talked about a lot also over the years, the rule of thumb being that petit b are asset owners and more inclined to be against rioting as have more to lose, as well as other more psychological reasons related to class position.

key point at this point of the conversation here is to remember there is a difference between working and petit b classes, despite whatever overlap in experiences and values there may be between individuals
i found this recent book fascinating, would recommend it a lot. lots of interviews and podcasts etc out there if you dont want to read it

A Nation of Shopkeepers: The Unstoppable Rise of the Petty Bourgeoisie - Repeater Books

The petty bourgeoisie — the insecure class between the working class and the bourgeoisie — is hugely significant within global politics. Yet it remains something of a mystery. Initially identified as a powerful political force by theorists like Marx and Poulantzas, the petit-bourgeoisie was...

repeaterbooks.com

 

[danski]

My experience of builders of all trades, from working on building sites for over 20 years is that the majority are Tory voters.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

My experience of builders of all trades, from working on building sites for over 20 years is that the majority are Tory voters.

I would say this is more true of the south than the north.

 

[Elohim]

So by ‘working class business’ you mean someone’s van?

Well yes my business is my van and tools.

 

[Elohim]

“Not real work” innit

If your working minimum wage for someone else and having to do mentally draining shifts your doing a working class job

It's all real work .It's putting food on your families table. I don't differentiate between working in a call centre or working fir yourself. We are all trying to keep our heads above the parapet.

 

[Elohim]

My experience of builders of all trades, from working on building sites for over 20 years is that the majority are Tory voters.

Most I've spoke to are not Tory voters. I've always been labour but with keir Starmer I've no time for labour now .
The way Jeremy corbyn got screwed over .

 

[Elohim]

I would say this is more true of the south than the north.

Yes I'm in the North and not alot are Tory voters well maybe embarrassed Tory voters so keep it quiet.

 

[mojo pixy]

Well yes my business is my van and tools.

This is the difference; you own your van and tools, your 'means of production' so to speak. I assume you get and manage your own clients, rather than having them assigned to you each shift? A worker who does the same work as you do, but does it for a boss who supplies them with clients, a van and tools, is in a different economic class from you. As is anyone who (for example) works for you using tools you supply, on a wage you pay.

It's worth reading the thread ska invita linked above, for more on this.

 

[Pickman's model]

I know alot on the left who are self employed builders, plumbers, etc .

Building trades are the working class natural work not sat in call centre's or working on shop floor's.

I know many anarchists who are self employed painters and decorators etc.

Are you any less working class if you work for yourself instead of a pay master?

So car mechanics, sheet metal workers, council gardeners or nursery workers - as examples - not natural w/c jobs

 

[A380]

Can you not have your own business and be working class?

Not all businesses are run by multinational corporations.

I've had my own business for last 15 year's I'm not rich ,still struggle in the winter due to nature if the work. Roofing.

Apparently not, even if you own a bucket you are no longer considered working class by the U75class commando…

 

[Pickman's model]

Apparently not, even if you own a bucket you are no longer considered working class by the U75class commando…

If you recall it wasn't that you owned a bucket but that you owned a factory making buckets

 

[A380]

Yes I'm in the North and not alot are Tory voters well maybe embarrassed Tory voters so keep it quiet.

What would you living in the north working as a tradee know about Northern builders? You need to listen to the real experts on here, London based arts graduates working in academia and media…

 

[A380]

If you recall it wasn't that you owned a bucket but that you owned a factory making buckets

I’m sorry; that was the sane approach to buckets taken by some, including I think you, but there was a definite line taken by several that a window cleaner who owned their own bucket could no no longer considered working class. Let alone one of those long pole things….

 

[Magnus McGinty]

This is the difference; you own your van and tools, your 'means of production' so to speak. I assume you get and manage your own clients, rather than having them assigned to you each shift? A worker who does the same work as you do, but does it for a boss who supplies them with clients, a van and tools, is in a different economic class from you. As is anyone who (for example) works for you using tools you supply, on a wage you pay.

It's worth reading the thread ska invita linked above, for more on this.

I don’t think a jobbing self employed builder is petit bourgeoisie unless they employ others.

 

[mojo pixy]

I don’t think a jobbing self employed builder is petit bourgeoisie unless they employ others.

I didn't say they were. But someone who organises their own clients and owns their own tools and van isn't in the same class as someone paid for work they do by a boss using tools a van and clients the boss supplies. Whatever we decide to call those two situations, they clearly aren't the same.

 

[two sheds]

Upper Working Class

 

[A380]

Upper Working Class

No you heretic: lower middle class obvs. ..

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I didn't say they were. But someone who organises their own clients and owns their own tools and van isn't in the same class as someone paid for work they do by a boss using tools a van and clients the boss supplies. Whatever we decide to call those two situations, they clearly aren't the same.

The conservatives encouraged the atomisation of the work force through self employment to weaken the unions and ergo the organised working class. I don’t see how that suddenly makes them not working class anymore simply because they have to buy their own tools.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Anyone one know what’s happening in France currently?

 

[pbsmooth]

Anyone one know what’s happening in France currently?

busy taking some direct action while the English try and work out who is and who isn't allowed to be on the same side.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I’m wondering if self employed cleaners that buy their own mop are also not working class.

 

[Ax^]

My experience of builders of all trades, from working on building sites for over 20 years is that the majority are sun readers

slight edit

as they appear Tory as they want low taxes and get whipped up about immigrants stealing their jobs quite easily

 

[pbsmooth]

most of them won't be paying their proper tax anyway!

 

[pug]

I’m sorry; that was the sane approach to buckets taken by some, including I think you, but there was a definite line taken by several that a window cleaner who owned their own bucket could no no longer considered working class. Let alone one of those long pole things….

I see you're exercised enough to get the crayons out for this subject.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

There’s different degrees of self employed. There’s working for an agency and getting them to find you work or finding your own clients with some mixing those two depending on work availability.

 

[Ax^]

most of them won't be paying their proper tax anyway!

hmm not all are like that but a worrying few identity with high earners and bankers because the low tax status

you not like musk because you pay the higher tax bracket

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I’m sorry; that was the sane approach to buckets taken by some, including I think you, but there was a definite line taken by several that a window cleaner who owned their own bucket could no no longer considered working class. Let alone one of those long pole things….

And actors and television presenters sell their labour so are proles…