Paris burns after police murder youth

[AnnO'Neemus]

My little bit of rebellion here in Bordeaux was to play N.W.A's Fuck tha Police on my mobile as my tram went through the Hotel de Police tram stop.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

There's a bit of a scam in the US where over-the-road truckers are sold on the idea of being their own boss. They're provided with a truck (and a debt on it), a schedule of pickup referrals, etc. They end up working nearly for free because all of the expenses come out of their pocket instead of the company they're working for.

That’s grim.
But in a sense what we’re all doing; working to pay off the various things we need to be able to go to work.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

There's a bit of a scam in the US where over-the-road truckers are sold on the idea of being their own boss. They're provided with a truck (and a debt on it), a schedule of pickup referrals, etc. They end up working nearly for free because all of the expenses come out of their pocket instead of the company they're working for.

I read a story about some kid (young adult) who got a motorbike on credit to enable him to work as a courier. As he was on zero hours (to the benefit of the bosses) he wasn’t getting enough work to pay for the bike he bought to enable him to work. Got hounded by bailiffs and eventually topped himself.
Wondering if he was petit bourgeois or not…

 

[mojo pixy]

But folk were talking about supplying your own tools (means of production) etc earlier and then I give this example where that is the case and now folk want to argue that they’re not self employed (which they are, HMRC certainly think so).
You can’t have it both ways.

so ..... HMRC define class, then? No need for Marx or any other analysis, just look at who pays your tax.

I think you can do better than this, but whether or not you do is up to you.

And it's pixy, not pixie, but whatev.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

so ..... HMRC define class, then? No need for Marx or any other analysis, just look at who pays your tax.

I think you can do better than this, but whether or not you do is up to you.

And it's pixy, not pixie, but whatev.

I haven’t said anything remotely close to ‘HMRC define class’ have I?
Folk were giving their own interpretations based on what they think the means of production are and I just pointed to a real world example that you and belboid didn’t like.

 

[tim]

I’m wondering if self employed cleaners that buy their own mop are also not working class.

Are cleaners still petit-bourgeois if the bosses supply the handle and the initial head, but they have to supply replacement heads

 

[A380]

I used to follow the “on the tools” Facebook page

I love that page…

 

[Pickman's model]

Are cleaners still petit-bourgeois if the bosses supply the handle and the initial head, but they have to supply replacement heads

How many cleaners can dance on the head of a mop, Catholic intellectuals never reached consensus on that

 

[Pickman's model]

I haven’t said anything remotely close to ‘HMRC define class’ have I?
Folk were giving their own interpretations based on what they think the means of production are and I just pointed to a real world example that you and belboid didn’t like.

Your statism is showing

 

[tim]

It is easier for a camel to pass through the handle of a bucket, than for a semi-self employed cleaner to claim working class status

 

[mojo pixy]

I haven’t said anything remotely close to ‘HMRC define class’ have I?

Yes, you have:

now folk want to argue that they’re not self employed (which they are, HMRC certainly think so).
You can’t have it both ways.

Or maybe there's some nuance missing?

 

[mojo pixy]

Just to add, I think the nuance is this: more and more previously (actually) working class labourers have been forced into nominal 'self-employment' so as to benefit the PMC (of both public and private sector) in terms of time and cost savings re. tax returns and related admin. That doesn't make all these people 'petit bourgeois' - if they are using the employer's tools and equipment, if they're reliant on a client base they don't have any control over, if they're not free to use their labour on their own terms and are forced or coerced into providing their labour to a manager or middleman or agency (on terms they do not negotiate) then there's an argument for them being in the same 'working class' as all us simple wage slaves. Their situation isn't much different, regardless of who pays their tax.

But these 'self-employed' are not the same as actual self-employed business owners who control their own workflow and client lists, own their own tools etc, and subcontract or employ staff themselves. They are petit-bourgeois, like it or not, and we can muddy the waters but that's all we're doing.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Just to add, I think the nuance is this: more and more previously (actually) working class labourers have been forced into nominal 'self-employment' so as to benefit the PMC (of both public and private sector) in terms of time and cost savings re. tax returns and related admin. That doesn't make all these people 'petit bourgeois' - if they are using the employer's tools and equipment, if they're reliant on a client base they don't have any control over, if they're not free to use their labour on their own terms and are forced or coerced into providing their labour to a manager or middleman or agency (on terms they do not negotiate) then there's an argument for them being in the same 'working class' as all us simple wage slaves. Their situation isn't much different, regardless of who pays their tax.

But these 'self-employed' are not the same as actual self-employed business owners who control their own workflow and client lists, own their own tools etc, and subcontract or employ staff themselves. They are petit-bourgeois, like it or not, and we can muddy the waters but that's all we're doing.

Their situation might be worse because they're ensnared by debt to keep them from having the ability to leave. It's another form of slavery.

 

[mojo pixy]

Their situation might be worse because they're ensnared by debt to keep them from having the ability to leave. It's another form of slavery.

I have encountered workers having to rent their tools or equipment or workspace from the boss/company. Hairdressers spring to mind, but I'm not sure how common this is in the UK. Maybe very, my line of work is almost never self-employed because of all the regulations around it.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

There's a bit of a scam in the US where over-the-road truckers are sold on the idea of being their own boss. They're provided with a truck (and a debt on it), a schedule of pickup referrals, etc. They end up working nearly for free because all of the expenses come out of their pocket instead of the company they're working for.

A bit like Uber, really. Work as and when you want! Be your own boss! (But here, sign up to this dodgy finance agreement for a new car.)

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

I have encountered workers having to rent their tools or equipment or workspace from the boss/company. Hairdressers spring to mind, but I'm not sure how common this is in the UK. Maybe very, my line of work is almost never self-employed because of all the regulations around it.

It happens in the production of chickens in the US too. These companies provide the specs and line up the loans to build confinement operations. They're provided with the chicks and the feed, etc. But, the costs all come out of a farm loan to the farmer. If you don't tow the corporate line, they'll pull everything you need to stay in business, but you'll still be on the hook for the loans. If you criticize the company, they'll ruin you. There's actually a word for this to explain how uneven this arrangement is. They call it "chickenization." They're trying to do the same with the pork industry now.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Yes, you have:



Or maybe there's some nuance missing?

Jesus. You seem to think working class people can’t be self employed. I pointed out they are and can. That isn’t me saying that HMRC are making a statement on class. Can you fuck off now as you’re being annoying.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Not my problem if the clever books don’t marry up perfectly to the coal face.

 

[Elpenor]

If only HMRC had a specific way of collecting money from subcontractors in the building trade to cover their tax and NI!

 

[Dogsauce]

I sometimes take my own tools to work, and stuff comes the other way too. Where does that put me in the scheme of things?

 

[maomao]

Not my problem if the clever books don’t marry up perfectly to the coal face.

I've never read Marx but understand the concept that the Marxist definition of class describes an economic relationship to society rather than nature of work or amount of pay. Your problem is that despite your whining about idpol you think class is a culture and identity.

 

[maomao]

Just to add, I think the nuance is this: more and more previously (actually) working class labourers have been forced into nominal 'self-employment' so as to benefit the PMC (of both public and private sector) in terms of time and cost savings re. tax returns and related admin. That doesn't make all these people 'petit bourgeois' - if they are using the employer's tools and equipment, if they're reliant on a client base they don't have any control over, if they're not free to use their labour on their own terms and are forced or coerced into providing their labour to a manager or middleman or agency (on terms they do not negotiate) then there's an argument for them being in the same 'working class' as all us simple wage slaves. Their situation isn't much different, regardless of who pays their tax.

But these 'self-employed' are not the same as actual self-employed business owners who control their own workflow and client lists, own their own tools etc, and subcontract or employ staff themselves. They are petit-bourgeois, like it or not, and we can muddy the waters but that's all we're doing.

In fact on several occasions, with respect to minicab drivers, courts have found that people in 'grey area self-emoloyed' jobs are in fact workers.

Of course ownership of tools or a contract that says you have to sort your own taxes out doesn't make you petit bourgeois, it's the ownership of the businesses that go with them.

 

[Pickman's model]

I sometimes take my own tools to work, and stuff comes the other way too. Where does that put me in the scheme of things?

In danger of termination if you're caught abstracting stuff from work

 

[mojo pixy]

Entre-temps, quelquepart en France..

Courts are currently overwhelmed by rioting cases and are having to dismiss plenty because of a lack of evidence or because of faulty or insufficient police arrest records. According to Libération this morning.

Also it seems last night had no rioting anywhere.

 

[Dogsauce]

In danger of termination if you're caught abstracting stuff from work

They definitely ’borrow’ more of mine than I do of theirs, and it’s a consensual arrangement. As a bonus all my stuff gets PAT tested by them.

 

[Dystopiary]

Fash headline from the weekend's Telegraph:



Sure, they're just quoting the French bizzies...

 

[gosub]

Does anyone remember Cameron's 'I'm Dave' period where he boasted that people frequently thought/mistook him for a plumber?

Missed that...boat sailed now but they could have got a series out of that , with him turning to plumbing after not being PM and it going about as well as you'd expect

 

[Raheem]

Does anyone remember Cameron's 'I'm Dave' period where he boasted that people frequently thought/mistook him for a plumber?

When your porn career comes back to bite...

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I've never read Marx but understand the concept that the Marxist definition of class describes an economic relationship to society rather than nature of work or amount of pay. Your problem is that despite your whining about idpol you think class is a culture and identity.

I don’t think I’ve mentioned culture or identity once in this thread. Perhaps you can point to where I have?

 

[maomao]

I haven’t mentioned culture or identity once in this thread. Perhaps you can point to where I have?

Am I to judge you on this thread only and not your two decades of presence here? We might as well be on Twitter!