England vs Italy (Group D) Saturday 14th June 2014

[Lo Siento.]

Was that due to the sand pit though? Hopefully he wouldn't have the same problem on other pitches (although I did notice that, despite the sand pit, we still seemed to attack predominantly down the right - poor Baines was often in loads of space but no-one wanted to make use of him ).

If I were a defending team, I'd be happier to see someone like Sterling on the wing where I can double up and show him down the line. Where I wouldn't want to see him is drifting in between the lines, where he can use his close control and clever movement to drag people out of position...

 

[Balbi]

Sturridge has to start up top. Welbeck covers Johnson's deficiencies. Sterling was exciting and made Rooneys assist with a ball Rooney at 10 would never try. Chamberlain on the left adds an engine to work over Baines.

Rooney on for Sturridge at 60 mins.

 

[Balbi]

Or, to be blunt, would you rather Rooney or Sterling be played out of position on current form?

 

[quiquaquo]

Or, to be blunt, would you rather Rooney or Sterling be played out of position on current form?

This (to your previous post)

 

[Lo Siento.]

Or, to be blunt, would you rather Rooney or Sterling be played out of position on current form?

I take the point that Sterling could be moved without being affected too much. But that raises a sub question really: if Rooney has to play there to be effective, what does that say about Rooney?

 

[Lord Camomile]

Or, to be blunt, would you rather Rooney or Sterling be played out of position on current form?

That's what I'm saying though, what is the cumulative effect of either playing out of position? I think Sterling playing out of position is overall less detrimental than Rooney playing out of position.

If I were a defending team, I'd be happier to see someone like Sterling on the wing where I can double up and show him down the line. Where I wouldn't want to see him is drifting in between the lines, where he can use his close control and clever movement to drag people out of position...

Possibly, but I think Sterling's game suits the wing more than Rooney's, plus Sterling showed that doubling up on him doesn't always work

I take the point that Sterling could be moved without being affected too much. But that raises a sub question really: if Rooney has to play there to be effective, what does that say about Rooney?

That he's a particular type of player? I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with saying "this is where I play best". I mean, you wouldn't put either in at CB, would you? Does that demean their other talents? Unless I've misunderstood the question, which is entirely possible...

 

[Balbi]

But he fucking doesn't play his best there though. At ten he charges around chasing the ball, not trusting his own midfielders to pick it up and feed him to feed wingers and the striker. What was passion at 18 in a 4 4 2 is now folly and weakness at 28 in a 4 2 3 1. When he picks the ball up deep, he's got to get into his position to feed and he just doesn't skip past players any more. If he's charging around, he leaves gaps, someone covers, but then Rooney doesn't track back and there's another gap. It's frustrating as fuck watching him tally ho across a pitch and lose the ball and wave his arms and still not get into position.

 

[Joe Reilly]

Would have been quicker to just answer "I'm a Manchester United fan and I love Wayne Rooney".

Your the one that insisted my judgement was clouded because I didn't see enough of him. Now it appears the opposite might be the case.

 

[Balbi]

This may be one of my strongly held opinions that fucks me off massively tbqh.

 

[Lord Camomile]

I think you clearly don't recognise 'bulldog spirit' when you see it

This does feel very reminiscent of the debate around Gazza ahead of the '98 World Cup. I was bemused that our PE teacher thought he should go based on the possibility of "one moment of magic that wins you the game". I think people now are expecting that of Rooney; we've seen what he can do, we want to believe he can do it again...

 

[Balbi]

Aye, nostalgia kills you in football...

 

[Lo Siento.]

Possibly, but I think Sterling's game suits the wing more than Rooney's, plus Sterling showed that doubling up on him doesn't always work

I thought Italy did it pretty well at it when he moved out there. Much better than England did with the more limited Candreva

That he's a particular type of player? I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with saying "this is where I play best". I mean, you wouldn't put either in at CB, would you? Does that demean their other talents? Unless I've misunderstood the question, which is entirely possible...

Sort of. I mean the flaws that make Rooney less effective on the left (not that mobile, doesn't go past people, doesn't track back) might be slightly less important in the centre (because you're playing with your back to goal, not running beyond people, don't have to track back) but they're still there. If you've got someone in the centre who is mobile and does go past people, and potentially someone for the Left who does likewise, is it worth including Rooney because his range of passing is a bit better than Lallana, Barkley or Oxlade-Chamberlain?

 

[Lord Camomile]

World class! Moment of magic!

So yeah, my Devil's Advocate playbook appears to be running out of pages...

Who was it that Scolari left out of the Portugese side during a tournament? Figo? Then he came back a much better player? Who knows, maybe that's how it would work. Maybe...

 

[Lord Camomile]

Though I think as has been proven before, Rooney needs games to get back to sharpness, so if you drop him you might not see the best of him until we're long out of the tournament.

 

[Balbi]

I was thinking more of Tevez, who got binned off entirely.

 

[Lo Siento.]

Your the one that insisted my judgement was clouded because I didn't see enough of him. Now it appears the opposite might be the case.

Didn't aim the post at anyone in particular and it didn't occur to me include a caveat for rose-tinted glasses... Every time I saw United this season they looked pretty ponderous, Rooney included, and he looked like a good striker having an average season.

 

[Lord Camomile]

I was thinking more of Tevez, who got binned off entirely.

HERETIC!!

 

[Balbi]

Though I think as has been proven before, Rooney needs games to get back to sharpness, so if you drop him you might not see the best of him until we're long out of the tournament.

So we're relying on him not negatively impacting the side too much while we hope for form. Fucking hell

 

[Joe Reilly]

I take the point that Sterling could be moved without being affected too much. But that raises a sub question really: if Rooney has to play there to be effective, what does that say about Rooney?

It says Rooney is England's, in terms of goals and assists (16 I think) most effective striker by a country mile. Ronaldo, Messi, Suarez, RVP all play in the positions that suit them and all deliver in a similar fashion because of that. Only the opposition would want them to play where they only got into the penalty area twice in the whole game. I bet the Italians were delighted when the saw the line-up. They're too canny to say anything yet but it will emerge sooner or later. As for Sterling, he has attractive qualities sure. But no 10 position carries specific responsibilities: score or assist/score and assist. Rooney does both. Sterling, for all the lavish praise, is yet to do either.

 

[Balbi]

Except those four players you named are all a cut above Rooney. Rooney's 'English World Class' which is just a good player with a fuckton of arrogance about his reputation.

 

[Lo Siento.]

It says Rooney is England's, in terms of goals and assists (16 I think) most effective striker by a country mile. Ronaldo, Messi, Suarez, RVP all play in the positions that suit them and all deliver in a similar fashion because of that. Only the opposition would want them to play where they only got into the penalty area twice in the whole game. I bet the Italians were delighted when the saw the line-up. They're too canny to say anything yet but it will emerge sooner or later. As for Sterling, he has attractive qualities sure. But no 10 position carries specific responsibilities: score or assist/score and assist. Rooney does both. Sterling, for all the lavish praise, is yet to do either.

There's a difference: Ronaldo, Messi, Suarez and RVP deliver wherever they're playing because they're genuinely phenomenal players. Rooney delivers intermittently when he's made the focal point of the team because he's a good player.

 

[Joe Reilly]

Except those four players you named are all a cut above Rooney. Rooney's 'English World Class' which is just a good player with a fuckton of arrogance about his reputation.

Of course stats put them on or around par. And let's remember that when it comes to respective countries England are the weak sister. So there is an extra merit in that.

 

[Joe Reilly]

There's a difference: Ronaldo, Messi, Suarez and RVP deliver wherever they're playing because they're genuinely phenomenal players. Rooney delivers intermittently when he's made the focal point of the team because he's a good player.

So these others are not the focal point?

 

[Lo Siento.]

So these others are not the focal point?

Ronaldo's played very effectively in every forward position, as has Messi. If you're classing Rooney with the likes of them, then I'm afraid there's not much hope for you...

 

[Balbi]

Of course stats put them on or around par. And let's remember that when it comes to respective countries England are the weak sister. So there is an extra merit in that.

Not really. It actually weakens his case. We can't afford to have a shonky intermittent player in, who can be great but is often sub par, in favour of a consistently good player.

 

[Joe Reilly]

Rooney delivers intermittently when he's made the focal point of the team because he's a good player.

Rooney has more competitive goals than any other England player. more than Shearer, Lineker, and Charlton. What was that about being intermittent?

 

[Balbi]

He's the NZ rugby (pre-2011 World Cup) of players. Always peaks in between competition

 

[Joe Reilly]

forward position

is indeed the operative term. Rooney has played 9 and 10 to considerable effect. Only a bigot would say different.

 

[marty21]

Rooney has more competitive goals than any other England player. more than Shearer, Lineker, and Charlton. What was that about being intermittent?

are you sure? maybe in qualifiers, but probably not in World Cups (Lineker scored 10 in world cup finals)

 

[Lo Siento.]

Rooney has more competitive goals than any other England player. more than Shearer, Lineker, and Charlton. What was that about being intermittent?

So? He's played more international games than them too, and that doesn't mean he's playing well now either.