Do angry vegans turn you against going vegan?

[mojo pixy]

lol, another lbj devotee labouring a moot point

How many folks does lbj have on his payroll, ffs.

Because people can't disagree autonomously with the great great you. How could they? There has to be a conspiracy....
Quelle surprise de con.

You have no idea what goes on in my world

Not entirely true after sixty nine pages.

There are many ways to promote and influence and effect change. Smashing up buildings and sticking bananas in tailpipes might be what floats your boat, but it's not for everyone so I'm not sure what's behind continued pursuit of that rather lame point. I've appeared on tv and in the centre spread a tabloid and have done several presentations. I'm happy with that. You've burned down a building? Good for you, whatever floats your boat.

As for the "agressive moralising" nonsense, loooool. That's just laughable

Aggressive moralising isn't a must. You could just do your thing and not wank on about it smugly. Choosing to do that while condemning direct action for animal rights as psychotic (ffs) suggests to me a certain integrity is lacking. But you've been on TV, just like that Gwyneth Paltrow, so your views must matter.

Direct action for animal rights isn't meant to promote influence and change (aww cute). It's meant to cause damage and financial loss to those who profit from animal abuse, with the intention of making those kinds of trade less safe and less profitable, therefore less attractive. Forgive me but when I hear your kind of (yes) aggressive moralising from people who aren't prepared to back it up with action, it rings hollow. Make your personal choices by all means but keep them personal. Want to throw your weight around in the debate? You'd better bring some weight with you.

those on your side of the fence, but of course you're not going to see that with those heavily biased blinkers of yours, eh.

Yeah, no. This is why I stopped taking your posts seriously a number of pages ago. You aren't even bothering to read mine, you're just reacting to them prickishly.

For the record (and I believe this is borne out by my posts) I'm actually on your 'side of the fence', but you're pretending so hard to be immune to any kind of criticism you can't even see it.

I think I know what'll happen next, but I'm always up for a pleasant surprise instead.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I don't see anyone fuming here. Just people taking the piss out of you. You've probably realised by now that a few of us are having a private game for which your presence is completely essential. You're being played like a fiddle.

Once again you happily admit to being a troll.

 

[Spymaster]

Once again you happily admit to being a troll.

Duh!

 

[ddraig]

I don't see anyone fuming here. Just people taking the piss out of you. You've probably realised by now that a few of us are having a private game for which your presence is completely essential. You're being played like a fiddle.

a private bullying game, well done, you must be so proud

 

[Spymaster]

a private bullying game, well done, you must be so proud

No, no, Draigo. Dirty isn't being bullied. He's being a dick, and that quality is being exploited for comedic its value. You're in the game as well and you're not being bullied, are you? You've made me quite a few points

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Aggressive moralising isn't a must. You could just do your thing and not wank on about it smugly. Choosing to do that while condemning direct action for animal rights as psychotic (ffs) suggests to me a certain integrity is lacking. But you've been on TV, just like that Gwyneth Paltrow, so your views must matter.

Direct action for animal rights isn't meant to promote influence and change (aww cute). It's meant to cause damage and financial loss to those who profit from animal abuse, with the intention of making those kinds of trade less safe and less profitable, therefore less attractive. Forgive me but when I hear your kind of (yes) aggressive moralising from people who aren't prepared to back it up with action, it rings hollow. Make your personal choices by all means but keep them personal. Want to throw your weight around in the debate? You'd better bring some weight with you.

I don't agree with you that militant direct action is the best way to advance animal rights in current circumstances. Vegans make up about 1% of the UK population. Whilst we're a growing movement we're also still very much on the fringes of society. Trying to advance our cause through acts of law-breaking, property damage, threats and so forth invites state repression and further social ostracism and isolation. The image of AR activists as terrorists and criminals still looms large in the public mind today. And in any event the idea that a small handful of activists can take on the might of animal industrial complex and the state through direct action is fanciful.

The main barrier to advancing the AR cause is the cultural norm of speciesism: the belief that the other animals don't count, or count for so little that it's okay to send them to terrifying deaths in industrial slaughterhouses just for our convenience and taste preferences. Whilst that attitude prevails there can be no meaningful or lasting change for the other animals.

Vegan advocacy is therefore about addressing the problem of animal abuse at the root and building a critical mass of people who are prepared to stand up for animal rights. It's also about diminishing demand for animal products and thereby saving animals from the fate of being bred into systems of violent exploitation. I know just talking to people isn't as sexy as direct action, but I believe it's the more effective strategy given where we're at ATM.

 

[Teaboy]

The main barrier to advancing the AR cause is the cultural norm of speciesism: the belief that the other animals don't count, or count for so little that it's okay to send them to terrifying deaths in industrial slaughterhouses just for our convenience and taste preferences. Whilst that attitude prevails there can be no meaningful or lasting change for the other animals.

.

When we're happy to send our own species to terrifying deaths. When we're happy to turn a blind eye to the wars that are happening and our own politicians cause it makes me wonder what chance there is for animals.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

When we're happy to send our own species to terrifying deaths. When we're happy to turn a blind eye to the wars that are happening and our own politicians cause it makes me wonder what chance there is for animals.

I can't pretend that I'm always hopeful either but 'pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will' and all that.

 

[mojo pixy]

I don't agree with you that militant direct action is the best way to advance animal rights in current circumstances.

I don't disagree, and I never said it was the best way to advance the cause. As I admitted, direct action of the sort I'm on about isn't meant to change minds and persuade. It's meant to disrupt business and make it less profitable. It's not for everyone either - but if someone wants to come on all holier-than-though about the issues then frankly, I expect to see more commitment than a revised shopping list.

I'd add that if persuasion is the aim, insults of the sort we've seen over the last few dozen pages will do little to advance the cause. It's literal elitism, and that's never a good look. In that respect some who consider themselves committed to the cause are, to all intents and purposes, working counter-productively (as suggested in the OP)

 

[Jeff Robinson]

I don't disagree, and I never said it was the best way to advance the cause. As I admitted, direct action of the sort I'm on about isn't meant to change minds and persuade. It's meant to disrupt business and make it less profitable. It's not for everyone either - but if someone wants to come on all holier-than-though about the issues then frankly, I expect to see more commitment than a revised shopping list.

I'd add that if persuasion is the aim, insults of the sort we've seen over the last few dozen pages will do little to advance the cause. It's literal elitism, and that's never a good look. In that respect some who consider themselves committed to the cause are, to all intents and purposes, working counter-productively (as suggested in the OP)

I have no disagreement with any of that. I would classify vegan advocacy and mentoring as forms of activism though.

 

[ViolentPanda]

apart from the "normal" comments the usual crap and your pseudo science of course!

Hmm, because Vegans never use pseudo-science, do they?

A tip: If you're going to self-righteously chuck around such declarations, it's usually sensible to make sure that your "side" isn't just as guilty of the crime(s) you're referring to.

 

[ViolentPanda]

...nazi vegan cup cake dicks!

They'd sell well to the fascists, who are among the most homo-erotically-charged closet cases on the planet.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Hi Not come across this thread before and haven't previously seen nationalist/racist sympathy type stuff like it in relation to veggie/vegan issues. Would I be right in thinking it has some kind of origin in eco-nationalist/anti-globalist ideas?

Way back at least 50 years before Hitler was born - mentioned for those who believe that this all began with Schiklegruber - in Europe, in terms of linking in with early "Green" philosophy (although most European Green parties have long abjured the hard right). Not sure of the "anti-Globalist" angle, as "Globalist" seems to mean different things to different people, especially conspiracy theorists.

 

[ViolentPanda]

And conspiraloonery. A lot of vegans i've known over the years have been into conspiracy theories too. I don't know why but I'd guess there's a certain mindset that lends itself to both interests.

I disagree. I'd say that the "fringier" Vegans are, but that the "fringier" elements of many lifestyles, philosophies and ideologies are equally as prone to metaphorically kneeling and sucking Icke's cock, as Vegans are.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Nah, pretending to care about an issue like animal rights but rejecting direct action as psychotic is what's bollocks. Have a word with yourself.

A case of either having, or lacking, the courage of your convictions. One should never talk the talk without having walked the walk.

 

[ViolentPanda]

More nonsense. So you've gone and smashed up places and believe that's the only way to get things done. How big of you. There's more than one way to peel a mango.

There may very well be more than one way to peel a mango, but there's only one sensible way.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's easy to carp from the sidelines

Mmmmm, carp!!!!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Quotes like that not only put me off, but make me want to punch the twat saying it in the face.

Harming my bodies spirit lol

The Dick Gregory quote, fine, the King quote though, rank "I'm better than you physically and spiritually because I keep my body pure" bullshit. Smug self-righteous motherfuckingness.

 

[ViolentPanda]

"Because sausages and bacon are yummy, everybody loves sausages and bacon, look, I'm going to eat more yummy sausages right now" seems to be the level of debate right now.

It's not just about "yumminess", although I suspect that some Vegans would like it to be. It's also about cheap nutrition, and here in the industrialised west, that means cheap meat products - cheap calorie-dense food that's easily available, and easily cooked. Provide a "ready meal" alternative that doesn't have a cost premium, and more people might "convert" to Veganism, but as it is, you're still swimming against a tide. I spent 8 years as a veggie, and eat very little meat now, in terms of volume. I take the same approach my grandad - who spent his later teenage years and his twenties in Burma and India - took: Meat used almost as a "seasoning", not as the dominant foodstuff on the plate. I know plenty of people who follow a similar philosophy too. That they aren't Vegans is not something to rail against, it's a source of hope - a limiting of consumption over even 20 years ago. If Vegans want to throw themselves into direct action regarding flesh, then attacking those who pump animals full of growth enhancers, antibiotics and other shit is a better target than burger-eaters and slaughterhouses.

 

[mojo pixy]

I disagree. I'd say that the "fringier" Vegans are, but that the "fringier" elements of many lifestyles, philosophies and ideologies are equally as prone to metaphorically kneeling and sucking Icke's cock, as Vegans are.

I must have met mainly fringier elements then because in my experience the crossover is broad

 

[ViolentPanda]

I must have met mainly fringier elements then because in my experience the crossover is broad

Maybe you're a weirdo magnet?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's not just about "yumminess", although I suspect that some Vegans would like it to be. It's also about cheap nutrition, and here in the industrialised west, that means cheap meat products - cheap calorie-dense food that's easily available, and easily cooked. Provide a "ready meal" alternative that doesn't have a cost premium, and more people might "convert" to Veganism, but as it is, you're still swimming against a tide. I spent 8 years as a veggie, and eat very little meat now, in terms of volume. I take the same approach my grandad - who spent his later teenage years and his twenties in Burma and India - took: Meat used almost as a "seasoning", not as the dominant foodstuff on the plate. I know plenty of people who follow a similar philosophy too. That they aren't Vegans is not something to rail against, it's a source of hope - a limiting of consumption over even 20 years ago. If Vegans want to throw themselves into direct action regarding flesh, then attacking those who pump animals full of growth enhancers, antibiotics and other shit is a better target than burger-eaters and slaughterhouses.

This is also where it becomes more complicated than 'make sure you never buy factory farmed meat'. We need society-wide changes on that front, and I'm fucked if I know where to get organic, free range chorizo from, as a for instance. It's expensive enough as it is, but I use it sparingly in stews and the like, as you describe it above, as seasoning. I would like all meat to be produced free range and as organic as possible, but all of this cannot be laid at the door of consumers within modern societies. We simply don't have the power as individuals, unless we're rich or extremely highly motivated and lucky enough to live somewhere where these options exist, to buy our entire food supply from highly ethical sources.

On other subjects, this kind of contigency of choices available to individuals within a society is a given in debates on here. On this subject, it is all too often ignored, minimised or, as has been happening on this thread, belittled.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Because people can't disagree autonomously...yadda yadda yadda"

Sigh. Is this an attempt to see how many fallacious claims you can fit into a single post?

1. Who said anything about a "conspiracy"? Yet another "ooh look, I've got no decent argument so I'll just throw the words "conspiracy" and "conspiraloon" into the mix". lol @ "autonomous disagreement". More like an opportunistic bunch of hecklers backing each other up...

2. "Aggressive moralising"? wtf. Aggressive fibbing on your part would be a more accurate summary. Never heard so much nonsense in my life.

3. re: "direct action for animal rights". I'm not sure why you are labouring that "activism" point. "You ain't no real vegan unless you've burned down a building and caused damage" Not once have I ever claimed to be an activist or involved in any kind of psycho "direct action". If others feel that that's how to get things done then good luck to you. A positive appearance on widely viewed media is imo far more effective and acts criminal vandalism and sabotage. Having said that, I also do respect people like the former activist Gary Yourofsky, or the "mercy for pigs" protesters, definitly not psychos imo. I've only been to one protest which was against the Iraq war. Apparently my protesting didn't really amount to much and Blair totally blanked me.

4. "This is why I stopped taking your posts seriously a number of pages ago. You aren't even bothering to read mine, you're just reacting to them prickishly." - Well tbh, up until you "aggressively" forced yourself into an argument between myself and lbj which wasn't really any of your business, you are right, I didn't bother reading much of your stuff, which appeared to me not to make much sense anyway and was you muttering away to yourself about how words are pronounced and not very interesting. I am truly devastated to learn that there's an idiot out there that doesn't take my posts seriously. How will I ever survive such a damaging blow to my apparently massive ego.

5. "For the record (and I believe this is borne out by my posts) I'm actually on your 'side of the fence', but you're pretending so hard to be immune to any kind of criticism you can't even see it." - hahahahahah, holy shit. You really believe that your posts clearly demonstrate that you are "my side of the fence". That's got to be a joke right? They're all over the shop so I'm really not how in heavens name you've reached that conclusion.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Once again you happily admit to being a troll.

He appears to be particularly proud of it and wears it like a badge of honour, bless him.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

The main barrier to advancing the AR cause is the cultural norm of speciesism: the belief that the other animals don't count, or count for so little that it's okay to send them to terrifying deaths in industrial slaughterhouses just for our convenience and taste preferences. Whilst that attitude prevails there can be no meaningful or lasting change for the other animals.

100% ...and as with many cultural norms, it is deeply entrenched and many people have a very strong resistance to fundamental change. Palate preferance trumps any genuine concern for animal welfare.

...for now.

Vegan advocacy is therefore about addressing the problem of animal abuse at the root and building a critical mass of people who are prepared to stand up for animal rights. It's also about diminishing demand for animal products and thereby saving animals from the fate of being bred into systems of violent exploitation. I know just talking to people isn't as sexy as direct action, but I believe it's the more effective strategy given where we're at ATM.

Indirect action via networking, mainstream media and increasingly social media, can often be far more of an effective change agent than burning down McDonalds headquarters, imo. That is not so say that there shouldn't be protests and demonstrations, they also have their place.
Bottom line is I believe we're heading in the right direction and we're gaining traction built on solid foundations. The signs are there and there is a positive "buzz" in the air. Of course it would be nice if things moved a bit quicker, but changing peoples attitudes and sacred cow beliefs is not that easy.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

There may very well be more than one way to peel a mango, but there's only one sensible way.

Not true. There are several "sensible" ways.

 

[Watermelon Man]

Fuck me! Is this still going?

To the Brixton vegans...what is your view on Ms Cupcake?

Best cakes evah?
Overpriced crap?
Not too bad?
They are vegan so I like them regardless?
They give me a dodgy tum?

Love to hear your views.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Fuck me! Is this still going?

See what you started.

To the Brixton vegans...what is your view on Ms Cupcake?

Best cakes evah?
Overpriced crap?
Not too bad?
They are vegan so I like them regardless?
They give me a dodgy tum?

Love to hear your views.

I've never been to Ms Cupcake but I might give it a visit one day just to check it out.
However, yesterday my daughter made some cinamon rolls with chocolate and lemon zest that were very nice and probably wouldn't be out of place at Ms Cupcake.

Anyhoo, I'm off to the carnival now, looks like a nice day for it.

 

[mojo pixy]

I think I know what'll happen next, but I'm always up for a pleasant surprise instead.

1. Everyone's against me
2. You're a liar
3. I got ignored by Tony Blair once
4. I don't need to make sense because of my massive ego
5. You're not on my side anyway

OK, whatever you like. There's no point in going on, no progress is being made. I've made some points that have been acknowledged by a couple of rational posters (so i know I'm not just whining into the void, which is always nice) and I really have better things to do this week than this.

Maybe you're a weirdo magnet?

QED.

 

[mojo pixy]

I'm still pronouncing vegan with the veg from vegetable and vegetarian. Because it amuses me, and because it's a tiny pop to an elitist bubble. A good friend of mine who's strictly vegan got really annoyed by it, which is all the encouragement I need