Do angry vegans turn you against going vegan?

[8ball]

They do several kinds. Some are really good, but they don't benefit from being sold as veggie pork pies.

This was neither pork-like, nor was it good, though given the excellent pastry, maybe I just didn't like the filling with this one.

 

[existentialist]

I'm guessing this wasn't run past the PR guys at Head Office.

I think KFC have quite a reputation for upfront, no-bullshit PR...and arguably having made a cockup like this, about the best think they could do is to make a clean breast of it. It really pisses me off when companies fuck up, and then get all legally-advised and not-admitting-liability about it all...

 

[gosub]

Sacked vegan brings landmark discrimination case . Court did decide Veganism was akin to a religon, (can't disagree). Block on BBC news seemed to think this was a significant deal, but not sure how much opt out religious freedom actually gets you these days

 

[8ball]

Sacked vegan brings landmark discrimination case . Court did decide Veganism was akin to a religon, (can't disagree). Block on BBC news seemed to think this was a significant deal, but not sure how much opt out religious freedom actually gets you these days

Well, a "philosophical belief".
Having judges rule on what is and isn't a philosophical belief makes fuck all sense, clearly.

The employers in this case were not contesting this point anyway - the article kind of implies he has won his dispute with the employer.

 

[Spymaster]

Well, a "philosophical belief".
Having judges rule on what is and isn't a philosophical belief makes fuck all sense, clearly.

The employers in this case were not contesting this point anyway - the article kind of implies he has won his dispute with the employer.

I thought the same the other day. Has he taken action against his former employers here or not?

The notion that LACS would fire someone for being a vegan is laughable. Half of them are probably vegans.

 

[8ball]

The notion that LACS would fire someone for being a vegan is laughable. Half of them are probably vegans.

I think the plan is to get this first bit through, then try a "the veganism made me do it" in the gross misconduct appeal case later on. It's not been made massively clear what he did. Reports have said he was dismissed "after" raising concerns about some of the LACS' investments.

"After", as opposed to "because of".

 

[existentialist]

I thought the same the other day. Has he taken action against his former employers here or not?

The notion that LACS would fire someone for being a vegan is laughable. Half of them are probably vegans.

I know nothing about the specifics of this case, so what I'm going to say might be perceievd as a bit unfair...but I've come across these single-issue campaigning types before, and they are a complete pain in the arse to deal with. I wouldn't be at all surprised if what Mr Casamitjana was trying to do was simply up the ante - whatever his employer did, it would undoubtedly not have been enough. He's obviously very much a campaigning vegan, and good luck to him there...but I do wonder whether what happened was that he got his hobby mixed up with his day job, and began to try and impose his values on his employer's operation. And then, of course, when they told him to wind his neck it, it's all clutching of pearls and "bbbbut you're only doing this to me because I'm VEGAN!".

Whatever, there are clearly rather more undercurrents to this tale than anyone's letting on about.

 

[8ball]

Is this distinction between "dietary" and "ethical" vegan a fairly new thing?

The wording/formulation rather than the concept, I mean.
The article makes it look like this is standard and understood terminology used as common parlance.

 

[Spymaster]

I thought veganism was an ethical position.

 

[8ball]

I thought veganism was an ethical position.

It depends. A mate of mine doesn't do it because he loves animals. He just fucking hates plants.

 

[Artaxerxes]

I thought veganism was an ethical position.

As with any niche choice once it becomes mainstream it quickly devolves into layers.

You’ve got the meat eaters who eat the off vegan thing as it’s billed as healthy, the ones who go vegan for climates sake, then you’ve got the ones who do it because it’s trendy.

Some ethical overtones but mostly not.

Then you’ve got full level meat is murder types.

 

[Saul Goodman]

As with any niche choice once it becomes mainstream it quickly devolves into layers.

You’ve got the meat eaters who eat the off vegan thing as it’s billed as healthy, the ones who go vegan for climates sake, then you’ve got the ones who do it because it’s trendy.

Some ethical overtones but mostly not.

Then you’ve got full level meat is murder types.

And then you've got this fucking loon, who won't use public transport in case a fly runs into the windscreen of the bus.

 

[MickiQ]

I thought veganism was an ethical position.

Is it hell if someone doesn't want to eat meat then I am totally OK with them making that decision but it's a lifestyle choice not some kind of moral one.

 

[8ball]

As with any niche choice once it becomes mainstream it quickly devolves into layers.

Trying to think of comparisons...

Yoga... check!
Emo... check!
Craft beer.. check!
Pilates... not sure...

 

[8ball]

Is it hell if someone doesn't want to eat meat then I am totally OK with them making that decision but it's a lifestyle choice not some kind of moral one.

Moral choices can be made for wrongheaded reasons (if that's where you're going with this).

edit: not that I personally think it is wrongheaded to avoid eating animals if you feel it is wrong to kill them for food - that seems like a pretty straightforward bit of reasoning

edit2: kudos for the point-blank refusal to prostrate yourself before veg*n virtue, though

 

[Spymaster]

Is it hell if someone doesn't want to eat meat then I am totally OK with them making that decision but it's a lifestyle choice not some kind of moral one.

Veganism isn't about not eating meat though.

Surely the difference between vegetarianism and veganism is from an ethical rather than dietary standpoint.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Trying to think of comparisons...

Yoga... check!
Emo... check!
Craft beer.. check!
Pilates... not sure...

Trying to find a fantasy series to get into is very hard these days because it’s all ‘dark fantasy’, ‘urban fantasy’, ‘hard fantasy’


I just want to read about wizards n stuff guys, bonus points if it’s good.

 

[editor]

Is it hell if someone doesn't want to eat meat then I am totally OK with them making that decision but it's a lifestyle choice not some kind of moral one.

Is it really? Thanks for your insight.

 

[MickiQ]

Veganism isn't about not eating meat though.

Surely the difference between vegetarianism and veganism is from an ethical rather than dietary standpoint.

Fair point I probably mean vegetarianism rather than veganism but ethical veganism is as illogical as belief in sky fairies. He doesn't use the bus in case it hits a fly? Has he given up on modern medicines then? Does he bath only in cold water?
Ethics is a purely man made set of rules that we have invented in order for us to live together in larger numbers than is natural.
Trying to extend it to other animals is a logical fallacy that soon becomes unmanageable

 

[8ball]

Fair point I probably mean vegetarianism rather than veganism but ethical veganism is as illogical as belief in sky fairies. He doesn't use the bus in case it hits a fly? Has he given up on modern medicines then? Does he bath only in cold water?
Ethics is a purely man made set of rules that we have invented in order for us to live together in larger numbers than is natural.
Trying to extend it to other animals is a logical fallacy that soon becomes unmanageable

I take it you have a newsletter.

 

[William of Walworth]

Good discussion. Will get back to it when I've time, but it may be worth looking at Saturday's Guardian report of the case (which has a few more details, I think, than the BBC version had)

 

[The Toilet]

I'm too stupid to formulate a decent pro/against opinion on vegans and veganism but why is it now such a big thing? Why is it the topic of the month?

My postman says Veganism is this year's Je Suis Charlie bucket challenge.

 

[BigTom]

I'm too stupid to formulate a decent pro/against opinion on vegans and veganism but why is it now such a big thing? Why is it the topic of the month?

My postman says Veganism is this year's Je Suis Charlie bucket challenge.

1) climate change issue is bringing a lot of people towards veganism who don't care about animal rights. Everyone I know who is now reducing meat consumption or removing it entirely is doing so for primarily environmental reasons, not health or animal rights reasons. This I think is responsible for the appearance of the "flexitarian" category and drives the longer term growth of vegetarianism/veganism.
2) Veganuary is bigger each year, it's been going for a few years but that's why this month in particular
3) Lots of big, mainstream, high street, fast food places bringing in vegan/plant based foods to replace meats. Very much away from the hippy-organic-raw food-vegan stereotype, and those companies are marketing their products hard

 

[BigTom]

Just had a vegan breakfast panini at work - beans, mushrooms, vegan sausage and vegan cheese.

Not bad overal, the sasuage was surprisingly decent, but my god the "cheese". No.

cashew based vegan cheeses, which claim to be vegan cheddar cheese are ime utterly disgusting and need to be condemned to be fed only to tories in the gulags come the revolution. However, I was very surprised trying some coconut based cheese (violife brand) which is very, very much like a gouda/edam type cheese. I have some "halloumi" to try when I can be bothered to get round to actually frying it (thought it was going to be a feta type cheese as just described as mediterranian style cheese)

I know nothing about the specifics of this case, so what I'm going to say might be perceievd as a bit unfair...but I've come across these single-issue campaigning types before, and they are a complete pain in the arse to deal with. I wouldn't be at all surprised if what Mr Casamitjana was trying to do was simply up the ante - whatever his employer did, it would undoubtedly not have been enough. He's obviously very much a campaigning vegan, and good luck to him there...but I do wonder whether what happened was that he got his hobby mixed up with his day job, and began to try and impose his values on his employer's operation. And then, of course, when they told him to wind his neck it, it's all clutching of pearls and "bbbbut you're only doing this to me because I'm VEGAN!".

Whatever, there are clearly rather more undercurrents to this tale than anyone's letting on about.

not disagreeing but I think it's understandable for someone to object to the League of Cruel Sports having investments in organisations that do animal testing, it's not really in line with the organisation's values, rather than an individual seeking to impose their own values on an organisation.

Fair point I probably mean vegetarianism rather than veganism but ethical veganism is as illogical as belief in sky fairies. He doesn't use the bus in case it hits a fly? Has he given up on modern medicines then? Does he bath only in cold water?
Ethics is a purely man made set of rules that we have invented in order for us to live together in larger numbers than is natural.
Trying to extend it to other animals is a logical fallacy that soon becomes unmanageable

I don't really want to defend this guy but your argument here fails because he will use the bus if it's over an hour's journey (iirc the time correctly). Any shorter than that, he's happy to walk and avoid the deaths he sees the bus travel causing. It's about avoidable deaths and what someone sees as reasonable to do in their own life. That he cannot avoid killing any living creatures ever is not a reason to not avoid those he sees as reasonable to avoid.

Honestly I feel like what you've said here, I could say that the logical outcome of what you are saying is that we should seek to cause pain and death to animals where ever we feel like it. It's basically sadistic. And that would be as much of a strawman of your position as the one you've created here for ethical veganism.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

1) climate change issue is bringing a lot of people towards veganism who don't care about animal rights. Everyone I know who is now reducing meat consumption or removing it entirely is doing so for primarily environmental reasons, not health or animal rights reasons. This I think is responsible for the appearance of the "flexitarian" category and drives the longer term growth of vegetarianism/veganism.
2) Veganuary is bigger each year, it's been going for a few years but that's why this month in particular
3) Lots of big, mainstream, high street, fast food places bringing in vegan/plant based foods to replace meats. Very much away from the hippy-organic-raw food-vegan stereotype, and those companies are marketing their products hard

This ex-slaughterhouse worker makes a pretty good case for veganism:

Whether they eat meat or not, most people in the UK have never been inside an abattoir - and for good reason. They are filthy, dirty places. There's animal faeces on the floor, you see and smell the guts, and the walls are covered in blood.

And the smell... It hits you like a wall when you first enter, and then hangs thick in the air around you. The odour of dying animals surrounds you like a vapour...

As I spent day after day in that large, windowless box, my chest felt increasingly heavy and a grey fog descended over me. At night, my mind would taunt me with nightmares, replaying some of the horrors I'd witnessed throughout the day...

Whenever I walked past that skip, I couldn't help but feel like I had hundreds of pairs of eyes watching me. Some of them were accusing, knowing that I'd participated in their deaths. Others seemed to be pleading, as if there were some way I could go back in time and save them. It was disgusting, terrifying and heart-breaking, all at the same time. It made me feel guilty. The first time I saw those heads, it took all of my strength not to vomit.

Confessions of a slaughterhouse worker

A former abattoir worker describes her job and the effect it had on her mental health.

www.bbc.co.uk

Basically, a world without slaughterhouses would be a much better world.

 

[8ball]

I'm too stupid to formulate a decent pro/against opinion on vegans and veganism but why is it now such a big thing? Why is it the topic of the month?

People are bored with Brexit.

 

[krtek a houby]

I'm too stupid to formulate a decent pro/against opinion on vegans and veganism but why is it now such a big thing? Why is it the topic of the month?

My postman says Veganism is this year's Je Suis Charlie bucket challenge.

no s/he doesn't

 

[andysays]

It depends. A mate of mine doesn't do it because he loves animals. He just fucking hates plants.

Say what you like about hating plants, dude, at least it's an ethos...

 

[T & P]

I'm (of course) completely supportive of veggie and vegan foods becoming commonplace and all restaurants and workplaces offering a good range of such options, but to me this feels like a cunt's trick...

How would you feel if your expenses were declined because your meal contained meat?

That's the situation at property developers Igloo Regeneration, where all corporate entertaining, workshop catering and even staff expenses must now be vegetarian if staff wish to be reimbursed.

No putting meat on expenses, says property firm

Developers Igloo Regeneration has gone vegetarian to cut its environmental impact.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm (of course) completely supportive of veggie and vegan foods becoming commonplace and all restaurants and catering places offering a good range of such options, but to me this feels like a cunt's trick...

No putting meat on expenses, says property firm

Developers Igloo Regeneration has gone vegetarian to cut its environmental impact.

www.bbc.co.uk

i think that's barely going to dent a property developers' environmental footprint