Do angry vegans turn you against going vegan?

[littlebabyjesus]

Octopodes or octopuses. Not octopi. Greek, not Latin.

 

[bimble]

No its not its octopodes.

 

[mojo pixy]

Indeed. But I don't claim that my choice to not eat octopuses but continue eating shrimp or whatever makes sense, not claiming its right or reasonable, just an irrational emotional choice on my part.

I think this catches the whole argument about what we eat and why

 

[mojo pixy]

But as it's now also an English word, Octopuses is fine.

 

[Casually Red]

looks at all the experts!!
happy that you've shut this down with your pathetic postings??
like misogynists on feminist threads

This thread on angry vegans ?

 

[Spymaster]

looks at all the experts!!
happy that you've shut this down with your pathetic postings??
like misogynists on feminist threads

Here he comes with all his wisdom!

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Unseasoned, unadulterated meat "doesn't taste good" and apparently this is proved by the fact that a plate of plain boiled chicken or beef would be pretty rank. Boiling is arguably the worst way to cook most foods (maybe not eggs, rice or noodles) ... So why boiled? Did early humans first cook meat by boiling it? I bet they didn't, I bet they cooked it on a fire.

Also as mentioned, lifelong lactase production tells us we may choose to adopt a vegan diet but it's not technically natural for anyone who isn't lactose intolerant. A huge swathe of humanity has quite naturally evolved to digest milk as adults. We can only pretend this isn't the case

Steak tastes pretty fine.

 

[bimble]

Oysters though, they haven't even got a nervous system, let alone a face.

 

[Spymaster]

This thread on angry vegans ?

You couldn't make it up

 

[mojo pixy]

... The ability to suffer may very well be rather widespread .. but I'm not sure drawing a moral equivalence between all animals that can suffer is possible either.

I go with a general assumption that all animals can suffer and in our (inevitable) exploitation of them what we need to do is make sure that suffering is minimal and short. What else can we do? Expecting humanity to entirely stop exploiting the other animals on this planet is absurd.

Can I add that anyway I wouldn't be at all surprised if plants too, suffer. I just think since there's no way we can know what that might be like, we dismiss it as just not existing at all. But we don't know for a fact that it's not the case.

I do think there are interesting discussions to be found inside concepts of animal suffering and animal rights, to do with how we choose to treat other living things, especially weak and vulnerable ones, and why. It gets drowned out by shouting a lot though.

 

[gentlegreen]

Calcium
Protein
Vitamins

The first two are better supplied via plants - "protein" is totally over-hyped - in the case of vitamins - possibly D - though you can now get that from UV-exposed mushrooms - and the reccomended dose now is so high you're better off buying pills ....... and you may get B12 because the cows are given B12 shots, and bonus iodine from the teet wash ...

 

[mojo pixy]

Steak tastes pretty fine.

Some would argue that meat of all kinds tastes best cooked on a open flame. That this is probably how we (humanity) first encountered it is no doubt just a huge coincidence

 

[Casually Red]

Some would argue that meat of all kinds tastes best cooked on a open flame. That this is probably how we (humanity) first encountered it is no doubt just a huge coincidence

And coincidentally that's how our ancestors then started to share left over meat with curious wolves , who eventually became domesticated as dogs . And we began to see animals as companions and not just food / enemies .

 

[mojo pixy]

For anyone looking for a bit of human exceptionalism, cooking is a good one. I believe chimps can do it if we show them and give them the tools, but they don't do it in the wild. Yet.

 

[peterkro]

Indeed. But I don't claim that my choice to not eat octopuses but continue eating shrimp or whatever makes sense, not claiming its right or reasonable.

Of course pulling an octopus inside out then bashing its brain in against a rock is not the most efficient way to kill an amazing animal.I've seen them do this in Greece.Many vile methods are used around the world including using extremely strong bleach.Octopus are aware when caught and will do their best to escape back into the water.Strangely enough respect for the animal seems strongest in Asian countries.

Link added:http://www.cephsinaction.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/J.-Pereira-What-we-do-to-kill-an-octopus.pdf

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I go with a general assumption that all animals can suffer and in our (inevitable) exploitation of them what we need to do is make sure that suffering is minimal and short. What else can we do? Expecting humanity to entirely stop exploiting the other animals on this planet is absurd.

Can I add that anyway I wouldn't be at all surprised if plants too, suffer. I just think since there's no way we can know what that might be like, we dismiss it as just not existing at all. But we don't know for a fact that it's not the case.

I do think there are interesting discussions to be found inside concepts of animal suffering and animal rights, to do with how we choose to treat other living things, especially weak and vulnerable ones, and why. It gets drowned out by shouting a lot though.

Well one broad theme across science in the last hundred years or so is that it has consistently underestimated the abilities of other organisms. I would say that, in order to suffer, one must first be conscious. However, we really don't understand consciousness well enough yet to make definitive claims about where it exists.

 

[mojo pixy]

...or does not.

 

[Spymaster]

Of course pulling an octopus inside out then bashing its brain in against a rock is not the most efficient way to kill an amazing animal.

You think? Sounds to me that if done quickly, that's a pretty decisive way to kill the creature.

 

[sleaterkinney]

What would aliens do??

 

[littlebabyjesus]

...or does not.

I see a wide fuzzy line. On one side are rocks. Not conscious. On the other side are you and me, and cats and dogs and pigs and chickens and probably snakes and frogs and possibly even cockroaches. Nemotode worms? More doubtful but I wouldn't dismiss it. Things without any kind of nervous system? Maybe, but if so, it's based on a very different kind of system (which I don't rule out, but equally I can't think how it would work).

One broad rule of thumb I would put forward that suggests consciousness is 'does the thing sleep'? If yes, then it's switching something off when it sleeps. What is that? Our best guess is that it is some kind of conscious representation - cos that's what we're doing when we sleep. Being conscious does appear to take such an effort that conscious organisms have to take regular breaks from it.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

looks at all the experts!!
happy that you've shut this down with your pathetic postings??
like misogynists on feminist threads

It's posts like this that make people want to wind you up and take the piss.

 

[bimble]

Shark steaks for you then lbj?

 

[Spymaster]

It's posts like this that make people want to wind you up and take the piss.

ALL of his posts are like that! It's all he does.

 

[peterkro]

You think? Sounds to me that if done quickly, that's a pretty decisive way to kill the creature.

The thing is it's usually not done quickly Octopus go into stress at the beginning of capture, they are exposed to predators and are dragged out of their environment and are fully engaged in trying to escape.They are usually stuck in a secure bag before their brains are dashed out some time later by the capturer.
I'm old I've seen a lot of vile things concerning animals,I grew up in NZ where slaughterhouses are as common as Tesco's.But after fifty years of being a vegetarian I'm pretty bored of vegetables/meat eaters debates.Do what you will there are wankers on both sides and fuck I don't really care what people shovel in their gobs.
By the way I worked in Bougainville in the sixties and a lot of the labour came from PNG believe me the "long pig" and cannibalism references are true.When I was there a local would get six months for murder or cannibalism and an expat life.Payback system and all that, chopping off a finger joint when a child died some men had fuck all fingers left and don't get me started on the treatment of women.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Shark steaks for you then lbj?

I'd eat shark steaks. (have eaten them) But I also think sharks are almost certainly conscious beings. 'not being a conscious being' isn't the rule I use regarding what I'll eat.

 

[bimble]

I'd eat shark steaks. (have eaten them) But I also think sharks are almost certainly conscious beings. 'not being a conscious being' isn't the rule I use regarding what I'll eat.

I get that, sharks just an outlier maybe in the it sleeps = it has consciousness rule you were suggesting.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I get that, sharks just an outlier maybe in the it sleeps = it has consciousness rule you were suggesting.

Well, they have quiet periods, which may very well be analogous to sleep. Swimming animals that have to keep moving have to maintain a certain set of functions. Whales do it by sleeping half the brain at a time.

 

[bimble]

Remember that nirvana song with the lyric in it that went "it's ok to eat fish cos they don't have any feelings"?
I thought it said cos they don't have any feet.

 

[xenon]

Trees sleep. Apparently. Though I don't eat trees.

Sleep doesn't indicate consciousness persay. It's a fuzzy concept anyway.

 

[mojo pixy]

Trees sleep. Apparently. Though I don't eat trees.

Sleep doesn't indicate consciousness persay. It's a fuzzy concept anyway.

Apples, Pears, Cherries, Oranges, Lemons, Limes, Peaches, Plums etc etc .. all just bits of tree really

Once while tripping I began to wonder if fruit trees might care how tasty their fruit is, because then more animals would eat it and its progeny would be more likely to spread than a dull-tasting tree's.