Did Rumsfield and Chums want and allow 9/11 to happen? The Poll!

[bigfish]

I think what it boils down to is the White House utterly underestimating the power of Al Q. They may be right with reference to the total complement of Al Q as such, but the ideas they espouse are extremely powerful, witness the rise of Al Sadr..

A couple of things H.

If, as you claim, "the White House utterly underestimated the power of Al Qaeda", then that must mean that you have a more realistic estimate of it than they do. Any chance of you sharing this additional knowledge with the forum, or are you simply making it up as you go along?

I rather suspect it must be the latter, because you then go on to insinuate that there's an ideological connection between Al Q and the MOVEMENT FOR NATIONAL RESISTANCE in Iraq led by al Sadr!

What you are saying is utterly and completely reactionary and profoundly racist too. In fact, you're fueling Islamophobia with crap like this. First, you reinforce the phantasmagorical myth of Al Qs "evil" "power" (minus any proof, naturally). Then you try to link this "evil" "power" to Sadr's peoples movement (minus any proof, naturally) who are the principle force trying to expel from THEIR COUNTRY a foreign army of heavily armed American and British bandits sent from Washington and London to imprison and brutalize the Iraqi people inside a totalitarian fascist regime and then loot THEIR LAND.

Surely you can see that can't you?

 

[goldenecitrone]

I rather suspect it must be the latter, because you then go on to insinuate that there's an ideological connection between Al Q and the MOVEMENT FOR NATIONAL RESISTANCE in Iraq led by al Sadr!

Well, they are both Islamic groups fighting against American Imperialism. Not a great leap to make the connection, surely?

 

[Loki]

The usual late night rambling post from bigfish.

Calling hipipol "profoundly racist" for his reasoned comments is pretty much on a par with your usual debating style. The last time we spoke you told me to throw myself under a bus, didn't you bigfish.

 

[editor]

A couple of things H.

If, as you claim, "the White House utterly underestimated the power of Al Qaeda", then that must mean that you have a more realistic estimate of it than they do.

You seem to have trouble understanding what 'past tense' means. Get a dictionary and stop making such a twat of yourself.

Will you answer my questions now, please?

Oh, and here's a great forum just for you:
http://fruitloop.aimoo.com/

You'l love it! Please use it.

 

[editor]

....trying to expel from THEIR COUNTRY a foreign army of heavily armed American and British bandits sent from Washington and London to imprison and brutalize the Iraqi people inside a totalitarian fascist regime and then loot THEIR LAND.

What, all of them?

I'd be delighted if you could produce some proof that the US and British armies are currently "brutalising" all of the Iraqi people. Have you got any?

 

[yozz]

I've heard it said and read on the PNAC pages, tho I cannot find it now, that the US need some kind of Pearl Harbour episode to instill the fear that would allow increased defence spending and legislation on internet monitoring and policing and allow a fresh invasion into Iraq.

From this, we know they wanted such an occurance, which for me casts a big shadow over whether they would allow such an occurance.

The quote you couldn't find is:

"the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor."

It's from page 51 of the PNAC document:'Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategy, Forces, and Resources for a New Century', published in September 2000.

It can be downloaded in pdf format from here: http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf


Donald Rumsfeld is among the signatories on the PNAC site. The full list includes:

Elliott Abrams, Gary Bauer, William J. Bennett, Jeb Bush, Dick Cheney, Eliot A. Cohen, Midge Decter, Paula Dobriansky, Steve Forbes, Aaron Friedberg, Francis Fukuyama, Frank Gaffney, Fred C. Ikle, Donald Kagan, Zalmay Zhalilzad, I. Lewis Libby, Norman Podhoretz, Dan Quayle, Peter W. Rodman, Stephen P. Rosen, Henry S. Rowen, Donald Rumsfeld, Vin Weber, George Weigel, Paul Wolfowitz.

 

[bigfish]

I'd be delighted if you could produce some proof that the US and British armies are currently "brutalising" all of the Iraqi people. Have you got any?

Tell me, do you hold a masters in pedantry as well as an art degree?

The fact the Usual Suspects are reduced to employing these cynical and logically fraudulent methods is a sure sign that they're losing the arguement hands down and are actually desperate people. That's why all of the recent 9/11 threads have been "dissapeared".

No they haven't. The 9/11 threads [...] are sitting in the bin.

I see you're trying to lead us all into that reality untroubled world of yours again aren't you?

Q. Is it a fact or isn't it, all four 9/11 threads were made to disappear off the WP front page?

A. Why, yes, it is a fact.

Q. So, where did they disappear to?

A. They got thrown in the dustbin.

Q. Are these threads accessible there so that freedom of speech can still be exercised through continuing debate?

A. No, they've been locked down and are inaccessible to the debating community.

So 9/11 threads aren't disappearing. You're talking utter bollocks as usual.

Well, one of us must be talking bollocks... and given that it's impossible to deny the fact that all four 9/11 threads formerly sitting on the FRONT PAGE of world politics disappeared only to reappear incarcerated in the dustbin and inaccessible to further debate, then it should be perfectly obvious to everyone outside of your immediate sycophantic circle that it's you who's talking it, not me.

I'd say that you've been given ample opportunity to state your case.

"Ample opportunity"!? What a laughable thing to say! Do you mean the "ample opportunity" we're afforded between the incessant barrage of flimflam, flip-flop anti-logic and evidence bereft sniveling invective laid down by the Moonspud Gang and the sudden and arbitrary disappearance of threads from the WP forum?

You can call that "ample opportunity" if you want to. Personally, I prefer to call it what it is: Bunk!

PS urban75 is not a 'democracy' neither does it make any claims of 'free speech'. The FAQ/info pages make that quite clear.

So why are you making that nonsense up?

But elsewhere you describe urban as a Brixton based community web site that "has enjoyed a long history of lively and robust debate on its forums". It's a place, you say, where people can "listen, interact and debate issues". What you don't say (in your Guardian piece at any rate) is that it's a community for whom democracy and free speech are both alien concepts. On the contrary, you rather leave the Guardian reader with a bit of a false impression that your something a champion for them.

As for the FAQ, does it make it perfectly clear free speech will not be tolerated in any form?

Incidentally, community minus free speech minus democracy equals totalitarianism. But of course you already know that don't you? No, seriously, you do... don't you?

 

[pbman]

Tell me, do you hold a masters in pedantry as well as an art degree?







I see you're trying to lead us all into that reality untroubled world of yours again aren't you?

Q. Is it a fact or isn't it, all four 9/11 threads were made to disappear off the WP front page?

A. Why, yes, it is a fact.

Q. So, where did they disappear to?

A. They got thrown in the dustbin.

Q. Are these threads accessible there so that freedom of speech can still be exercised through continuing debate?

A. No, they've been locked down and are inaccessible to the debating community.




Well, one of us must be talking bollocks... and given that it's impossible to deny the fact that all four 9/11 threads formerly sitting on the FRONT PAGE of world politics disappeared only to reappear incarcerated in the dustbin and inaccessible to further debate, then it should be perfectly obvious to everyone outside of your immediate sycophantic circle that it's you who's talking it, not me.




"Ample opportunity"!? What a laughable thing to say! Do you mean the "ample opportunity" we're afforded between the incessant barrage of flimflam, flip-flop anti-logic and evidence bereft sniveling invective laid down by the Moonspud Gang and the sudden and arbitrary disappearance of threads from the WP forum?

You can call that "ample opportunity" if you want to. Personally, I prefer to call it what it is: Bunk!




But elsewhere you describe urban as a Brixton based community web site that "has enjoyed a long history of lively and robust debate on its forums". It's a place, you say, where people can "listen, interact and debate issues". What you don't say (in your Guardian piece at any rate) is that it's a community for whom democracy and free speech are both alien concepts. On the contrary, you rather leave the Guardian reader with a bit of a false impression that your something a champion for them.

As for the FAQ, does it make it perfectly clear free speech will not be tolerated in any form?

Incidentally, community minus free speech minus democracy equals totalitarianism. But of course you already know that don't you? No, seriously, you do... don't you?

Your confused bigfish, you have no free speach rights on a private board, you have the right to start your own thou, then you can do what you like.

Their are boards that are complety unmoderated, but they are a mess.

I

 

[Citizen66]

If you want private conversations in a public forum, I suggest you adjourn to your own intimate forums where I'm sure you won't be troubled by anyone else's opinion.

You just said that you didn't want to repeat yourself! Make your mind up for god's sake.

 

[Citizen66]

Isn't this man the same sadcase who was squealing in indignation about'personal abuse'?

Is this all you can do? Relentlessly snipe at people to get noticed?

 

[editor]

Incidentally, community minus free speech minus democracy equals totalitarianism. But of course you already know that don't you? No, seriously, you do... don't you?

I've had enough of this bullshit and your incessant whining.

Kindly take your whining, your lies, your evasion, your deluded fantasies and your persistent sniping elsewhere.

If you weren't such a fucking pathetic loser you would have got off your lazy, paranoid arse and set up your own forums.

Instead, you have to leech off me and think that you have some kind of God-given right to abuse my hard work and the popularity of this site by endlessly posting up the same obsessive, disruptive drivel, day after day.

If you don't like it here: fuck off.

You won't be missed.

"totalitarianism"... What a total wanker!!!

 

[Thumper Browne]

I think what it boils down to is the White House utterly underestimating the power of Al Q.

Planning the shit?
Never
Taking advantage of the result?
Of course

Me too. They did underestimate them. They knew Al Q were planning stuff with planes, I think they were expecting a hijacking, hostage type situation. What they didn't anticipate was the targeting of the twin towers because it was totally inconcievable to these guys in Washington that 'them ragheads' could pull off something like this. I think they acknowledged the threat, grossly underestimated it and decided to let it slide, a hijacking on a US airline and say 200-300 hostages they could cope with, scare up the public and then cut a deal to get the people back, but it came back to bite them, cos the terror activity that they let slide was the biggest terror attack of our time.

Planning the shit?
Never
Being complicit in someone else's planning?
Maybe
Taking advantage of the result?
of course

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

Just this.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Did a MASSIVE worldwide conspiracy involving the President of the United States murdering 3000 of his own people and the Israeli secret service and the stock exchange and the C.I.A and business in Saudi Arabia and Texas and the Middle east and cousins of politicians and business leaders really occur for some type of financial or world domination type goal?

OR

Did Osama Bin Laden, our sworn enemy and arch terrorist for over a decade, already responsible for mass murder a bunch of times, send his trained Al Queda operatives to pull out box cutters, scaring the crap out of passengers, in a perfectly executed, pretty simple plan, to fly planes into the World Trade Center and Washington landmarks to kill Americans and destroy our symbols and cripple our economy?

Hmm. Tricky one.

 

[pk]

Why I'm bothering to reply to Bigfish when he clearly isn't able to reply to questions put to him, notably from the Editor, I don't know but here goes...

I asked you earlier if you could provide concrete examples in support of your allegation of "Al Qaeda's" criminal involvement in identity theft and also for you to provide me with a list of the countries you claim Israeli citizens are unable to visit because they have "little freedom of movement globally".

http://www.insightmag.com/news/2002/08/26/National/AlQaeda.May.Be.Stealing.Your.Id-260119.shtml

Al-Qaeda had fake SA passports
27/05/2004 10:45**-*(SA)
http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_1533511,00.html

Over and over again, investigators examining the Al Qaeda terrorist network point to a common thread -- the ease with which many in the network travel the world using fake passports or illegally obtained immigration documents.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/trail/etc/fake.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regarding the well known fact that Israeli citizens are refused permission to many many countries:

http://www.celestia.co.uk/wexas/p3_officialpermitsandrestrictedareas.htm
"Many countries (including most Gulf states) still refuse to issue visas to anyone whose passport contains Israeli stamps. If you visit this country, ask the immigration officials not to stamp your passport. If your passport does contain Israeli stamps, get a new passport as soon as possible"

British Embassy, Beirut Travel Advice:
"If your passport contains Israeli stamps you will be refused entry to Lebanon"

If you knew what you were talking about you would know Israeli citizens aren't able to enjoy a fraction of the freedom of global movement that we British passport holders do.
But you don't.

So keep on pushing the conspiracy line, if that's all you want to believe.

 

[pk]

Actually Bigfish - don't bother, I know full well you're full of shit.

Looking forward to your getting booted off this site, actually.

 

[editor]

Actually Bigfish - don't bother, I know full well you're full of shit.

Indeed. According to that deluded dreamer, urban75 is a totalitarian state.

Looking forward to your getting booted off this site, actually.

Soon come, I believe.

I've had enough of the obnoxious, abusive cunt and I should never have let myself be persuaded to let him back on him after he bullied and abused a moderator.

And when he goes, DrJ can expect to find any FAQ-busting threads about his departure to be firmly binned. After all, he got fuck all support from the community for his pathetic 'nasty editor loses the plot over poor little bigfish' thread last time.

I can't think of any reason at all why I should continue to afford him the privilege of posting here in light of his disruptive, abusive antics here.

 

[Thumper Browne]

Did a MASSIVE worldwide conspiracy involving the President of the United States murdering 3000 of his own people and the Israeli secret service and the stock exchange and the C.I.A and business in Saudi Arabia and Texas and the Middle east and cousins of politicians and business leaders really occur for some type of financial or world domination type goal?

OR

Did Osama Bin Laden, our sworn enemy and arch terrorist for over a decade, already responsible for mass murder a bunch of times, send his trained Al Queda operatives to pull out box cutters, scaring the crap out of passengers, in a perfectly executed, pretty simple plan, to fly planes into the World Trade Center and Washington landmarks to kill Americans and destroy our symbols and cripple our economy?

Hmm. Tricky one.

A lil from Column A and a lil from Column B.

 

[Citizen66]

Did a MASSIVE worldwide conspiracy involving the President of the United States murdering 3000 of his own people and the Israeli secret service and the stock exchange and the C.I.A and business in Saudi Arabia and Texas and the Middle east and cousins of politicians and business leaders really occur for some type of financial or world domination type goal?

OR

Did Osama Bin Laden, our sworn enemy and arch terrorist for over a decade, already responsible for mass murder a bunch of times, send his trained Al Queda operatives to pull out box cutters, scaring the crap out of passengers, in a perfectly executed, pretty simple plan, to fly planes into the World Trade Center and Washington landmarks to kill Americans and destroy our symbols and cripple our economy?

Hmm. Tricky one.

When a crime has been commited and there's only a handful of perpetrators... take a glance at the motives that all the suspects have.

Who had the most to gain from this crime? Who has gained the most from this crime? Hmm. Tricky one.

 

[Jo/Joe]

well that's a matter of opinion. i'm sure OBL was satisfied.

 

[Citizen66]

well that's a matter of opinion. i'm sure OBL was satisfied.

And you accuse the CT nuts of speculation

WTF?

 

[Jo/Joe]

so you don't think OBL would have been greatly satisfied by 9/11 if al-q did do it citizen?

and you didn't answer my earlier question - do you think the US could have found an excuse for invading afghanistan without murdering 3000 of its own citizens. in fact you did answer, but I asked for clarification.

 

[vimto]

Just this.

That's a damn good article...makes ya fink dunnit

 

[pk]

Citizen66
100% spoof
*
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,024




Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo/Joe
well that's a matter of opinion. i'm sure OBL was satisfied.

And you accuse the CT nuts of speculation

WTF?

Oh come on now Citizen.

It is well documented that Osama related the story of 9/11 to his supporters, with much glee. I have personally seen footage (as part of the VHS recordings seized in Afghanistan by CNN) which clearly shows Osama saying to one of his fuckpig subordinates, "when the first attack hit, everybody cheered, and I said to them - wait and see".

There's no doubt in my mind whatsoever that Osama was the mastermind behind 9/11.

It is also possible that elements of the Secret Services globally were unwittingly compliant, thrown off the real scent and perhaps there were those who stood to benefit from the attacks, and did nothing.
Those people may well have been from Mossad, or British Intelligence, or the CIA.

But the "proof" supplied by those desperate to show the whole event as a fraud, without any regard or respect for those caught up in its horrific impact is scant at best and piss-takingly far fetched at worse.

Unhelpful to all those except the enemy itself.

The only people who really benefit from wild groundless speculation are the perpetrators of the deed, eager to hide their real tracks.

They may well have started the stories that the konspiracy krew propagate, in which case - who is the real fool here?

 

[Jazzz]

5 Osamas, which is the odd one out?

If you said, "E", you just blew the CIA confession tape out of the water

from http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/osamatape.html

 

[pk]

You're one of the worst, Dr Jazzz.

It is sad that you're one of those already predisposed to believe that world events are determined by secret, mind-boggling conspiracies of the powerful, by people too influential and wily to be caught - but who leave a trail that can be decoded by a few brave outsiders who know where and how to look.

I just hope you spend as much time on the piano as you do playing amateur news reporter on the internet. Seriously.

 

[Thumper Browne]

It is sad that you're one of those already predisposed to believe that world events are determined by secret, mind-boggling conspiracies of the powerful, by people too influential and wily to be caught - but who leave a trail that can be decoded by a few brave outsiders who know where and how to look.

Brave outsdiers? No, just people who cannot buy into the offical line because there are just too many questions left unanswered. These unanswered questions should be aired as frequently and as publicly as possible until we do have some answers. But hey, it's not like the mainstream press are going to raise them and you wanna know why? Too many wily and ifluential people stand to be implicated in some way or other. All the investigations have had limited scope and have turned out to be pretty much whitewashes and the meeja laps them up.

"The case is solv-ed!"

The only people who really benefit from wild groundless speculation are the perpetrators of the deed, eager to hide their real tracks.

This is a fucking joke, right? It's gotta be, that kind of shite is only trotted out right wing a-holes defending Bush. With us or against us? Anti-War is pro Saddam! Asking questions and making accusations is aiding terrorists, give me a break.

 

[editor]

Brave outsdiers? No, just people who cannot buy into the offical line because there are just too many questions left unanswered..

That's rather subjective - a bit like those people who think that there are "too many unanswered questions" about all manner of subjects like 'did man really land on the Moon landings'.

Why do you think 'the media' aren't asking these questions about remote control planes hitting the WTC/imploding towers/missiles/holograms/LIHOP/MIHOP/HIP HOP/SHEBOP/THE KOP etc?

And why is it that the general public don't appear to be even remotely interested in the various imaginative theories proposed by conspiracy advocates, despite the world-changing enormity of the event?

 

[Thumper Browne]

That's rather subjective - a bit like those people who think that there are "too many unanswered questions" about all manner of subjects like 'did man really land on the Moon landings'.

Why do you think 'the media' aren't asking these questions about remote control planes hitting the WTC/imploding towers/missiles/holograms/LIHOP/MIHOP/HIP HOP/SHEBOP/THE KOP etc?

And why is it that the general public don't appear to be even remotely interested in the various imaginative theories proposed by conspiracy advocates, despite the world-changing enormity of the event?

I'm not advocating all the screamingly outlandish theories of remote control planes they are clearly bonkers but many of the questions raised on the site Backatya Bandit posted are legitimate and so is the OBL confession questions raised on the site DrJ linked to, as far as I can tell. And as C66 says you got to ask yourself who is the main beneficiary of the crime. Questions, questions, questions?

Personally, I'm more interested in the psychology of all the people involved from the PNAC planning, Al Q's planning, the FBI, the CIA, the military especially the airforce and air traffic control and when I try to get into the heads of these people I see Al Q's job being made much easier by PNAC requirements and the fear or mistrust of peoples own intuition because of the heirarchical structures they find themselves in, like, maybe if the airtraffic controllers took the situation into their own hands and got the airforce scrambled quickly then this could have been prevented but there was hesitation and doubt, superiors were consulted, tapes were destroyed, I wonder if those air traffic controllers sleep at night?

Whilst I don't advocate the bonkers conspiracy theories, cos they are unhelpful but nor do I advocate everyone yelling "shut up!" when they hear the words "9/11 conspiracy" cos that too is just as unhelpful.

 

[pk]

Backatcha Bandit's "coincidence theorist" link was superb.

None of the genuine and worrying questions posed involved holograms, remote controlled aircraft, or subterranian explosions though.

Which is why I say that those forwarding such preposterous theories serve only to cloud the water further, and hamper genuine investigations.

Which can only be good for the real criminals.