Decriminalisation of the sex industry - Corbyn says yes, what thinks urban?

[bimble]

Ok, let's take the first one: keeping a brothel. What do you think would happen if that was decriminalised? Specifically, who would benefit and how, and who would would be worse off and how?

I don't know the answers. I get that some self employed sex workers wouldn't benefit from any changes to the law in this area. But lots of people seem to feel differently, would choose to work together (as in from a shared space) if that was not illegal.

Here's someone explaining why she thinks decriminalising brothels would make her safer at work.
Sex worker Charlotte Rose on brothels and prostitution - BBC News

 

[Athos]

Depends how it's done. Specifically, women who want to team up in small groups could be better off, as doing so is currently illegal.

tbh I'm surprised when anyone defends the status quo - it's inconsistent and hypocritical. It could be worse, but the only defence of not changing it is to say that every alternative is even worse than this bad option. New Zealand's example shows positives - others, such as Germany and Netherlands less so.

Yes, theoretically brothels could be run so workers' cooperatives. As, in theory, could any business. The reality is very different, though.

I am not defending the status quo at all. I would introduce many measures that would help sex workers, including social security that prevents people being forced into that work by economic duress, a more rational drugs policy, and much harsher penalties for men who abuse sex workers and the police who fail in their duty to investigate such crimes, for starters.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes, theoretically brothels could be run so workers' cooperatives. As, in theory, could any business. The reality is very different, though.

I am not defending the status quo at all. I would introduce many measures that would help sex workers, including social security that prevents people being forced into that work by economic duress, and a more rational drugs policy, for starters.

That's great. You do that, but there are still sex workers. What next?

As you yourself mention, that pesky thing reality...

ETA: It's a tricky balance, no? I agree with everything others have said about the illusion of choice, but at the same time the opposite extreme - to deny individual agency - also doesn't work.

 

[Athos]

That's great. You do that, but there are still sex workers. What next?

As you yourself mention, that pesky thing reality...

Yes, in either (or any) model there'll be sex workers; is a matter of reducing harm. From hearing some sex workers opinions, I'm unconvinced that this will be best acheived by the decriminalisation of brothel-keeping.

 

[bimble]

If you have time this article is a good one, on how complex this is and how hard it is to talk about it without people getting very angry if they disagree, as happened to Corbyn last week when he said what he said.


"The data is highly contested, the arguments are complex and difficult. But if you believe in the decriminalisation of sex work, you will instantly come under a sustained and highly emotive attack on your morality and your identity. It is not enough for people to disagree with you. You become a betrayer of women, a gender Judas encouraging violence against them..

It's not just Corbyn who has supposedly betrayed women. So has Amnesty International, which recently chose to advocate for decriminalisation after two years of evidence gathering and consultations, including with current and former sex workers as well as public health groups. .."

Corbyn will be punished for his bravery on sex work

 

[Johnny Vodka]

If you have time this article is a good one, on how complex this is and how hard it is to talk about it without people getting very angry if they disagree, as happened to Corbyn last week when he said what he said.

Corbyn will be punished for his bravery on sex work

Be curious about anything liberal or progressive in this country and you're fucked. It's the one thing that unites the Tories, Labour and SNP - no move on liberal issues such as sex work, 'right to die' or drug laws, issues which many other western countries aren't scared of discussing with a view to changing the status quo. A discussion in this country is just that, a tick box exercise, a nod to democracy and listening to other voices, but with no intent to change. Corbyn looks like the smallest puff of fresh air, but he may get kicked to death by his own party or if he survives to the next GE get a kicking then...

 

[pengaleng]

the whole working together for safety argument is a bit

I am a "sex-worker" and I agree with Corbyn.

Sex workers are working people too and Labour is supposed to be the party representing working people.

who is saying they are not workers???????

so what is your setup? indie/agent? and how would sex work being decriminalised benefit you? what rights do you hope to gain? it's a valid question as I've already pointed out if you are independent this is already legal and you have the same rights as any other self employed person

re: girls not being allowed to work together, the issue of safety in 2016 (if you are not soliciting on the street) is kinda moot when passports are asked for, emails sent from work addresses, phone numbers and addresses are taken, sites like ugly mugs exist, giving people details of where you are and when they should be receiving contact from you, references from other girls have never been easier to get, do you think no one talks to each other or has bookings together?

all I'm hearing is advocates for solicitation to be entirely ok when the people who are doing that are at the bottom of the pile, these women don't have voices, it's fine if they want to be doing sex work, but who in their right mind would be on the street when they have other options.

as for labelling them as criminals I think it's abhorrent, but the establishment (men lol) need this because they cant be seen to punish their own can they, the men have a right to sex they cant help it lets punish the filthy slag, it's her own fault a man took advantage. they don't go on a man hunt they go on a witch hunt, its always the same shit.

 

[Mr Moose]

I don't see why some are if favour of decriminalising some behaviours over proper legalisation and regulation. Decriminalisation strikes me as an unhappy halfway house where the black market still has control.

It depends on whether you feel prostitution is harmful. So you might recognise that criminalising sex workers is counter productive and unfair, but that prostitution isn't something that should be promoted.

You are right that's a not wholly successful compromise.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

It depends on whether you feel prostitution is harmful. So you might recognise that criminalising sex workers is counter productive and unfair, but that prostitution isn't something that should be promoted.

You are right that's a not wholly successful compromise.

Legalisation and regulation don't necessarily equate to promotion, though. Anyway, I followed this up with probably agreeing with decriminalisation as set out by Amnesty (though this looks to me like legalisation without regulation)... I think of these terms on how they might apply to drug laws, which I guess might not be the same as sex work.

 

[Athos]

the whole working together for safety argument is a bit


who is saying they are not workers???????

so what is your setup? indie/agent? and how would sex work being decriminalised benefit you? what rights do you hope to gain? it's a valid question as I've already pointed out if you are independent this is already legal and you have the same rights as any other self employed person

re: girls not being allowed to work together, the issue of safety in 2016 (if you are not soliciting on the street) is kinda moot when passports are asked for, emails sent from work addresses, phone numbers and addresses are taken, sites like ugly mugs exist, giving people details of where you are and when they should be receiving contact from you, references from other girls have never been easier to get, do you think no one talks to each other or has bookings together?

all I'm hearing is advocates for solicitation to be entirely ok when the people who are doing that are at the bottom of the pile, these women don't have voices, it's fine if they want to be doing sex work, but who in their right mind would be on the street when they have other options.

as for labelling them as criminals I think it's abhorrent, but the establishment (men lol) need this because they cant be seen to punish their own can they, the men have a right to sex they cant help it lets punish the filthy slag, it's her own fault a man took advantage. they don't go on a man hunt they go on a witch hunt, its always the same shit.

From what I understand i.e. from listening to sex workers, the people who'd really benefit from the decriminalisation of brothel-keeping are those who'd own and run the brothels; the workers themselves would soon find themselves worse off - paying to hire rooms, having part of their takings skimmed off the top, etc., etc. Yes, in theory it could help the sex workers who are on the streets, but given they are the most marginalised and desperate, you have to wonder whether they'd be in these brothels, anyway.

 

[Athos]

Legalisation and regulation don't necessarily equate to promotion, though. Anyway, I followed this up with probably agreeing with decriminalisation as set out by Amnesty (though this looks to me like legalisation without regulation)... I think of these terms on how they might apply to drug laws, which I guess might not be the same as sex work.

Legalisation involves a regulatory framework around sex work; essentially, it's to protect polite society e.g. by ghettoising sex workers. Whereas, in theory at least, decriminalisation is aimed at reducing the harm to sex workers.

 

[bimble]

It's very confusing. Here's the sort of thing that's happened in Germany, after they legalised brothels: It's vast and very shiny-looking, but no mention of how much the women who work there get to keep out of whatever the place charges its punters.
Mega-brothels: Has Germany become 'bordello of Europe'? - BBC News

edit: when you go to their site it says this first- so it looks like women make their own terms and are just choosing to use the mega-brothel's facilities to work in?

 

[Johnny Vodka]

It's very confusing. Here's the sort of thing that's happened in Germany, after they legalised brothels: It's vast and very shiny-looking, but no mention of how much the women who work there get to keep out of whatever the place charges its punters.
Mega-brothels: Has Germany become 'bordello of Europe'? - BBC News

There's a Vice documentary on this. It didn't turn out particularly well. The market flooded with sex workers (many foreign) and rates for sex went way down. Blokes could go to a mega brothel and buy so many shags in a night.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

There are also consequences of a country acting alone - like weed is decriminalised in the Netherlands so they get all the stoners visiting. Germany relaxed prostitution laws, so got overrun with sex workers and people looking to buy sex. It could be an argument for countries acting together?

 

[pengaleng]

From what I understand i.e. from listening to sex workers, the people who'd really benefit from the decriminalisation of brothel-keeping are those who'd own and run the brothels; the workers themselves would soon find themselves worse off - paying to hire rooms, having part of their takings skimmed off the top, etc., etc. Yes, in theory it could help the sex workers who are on the streets, but given they are the most marginalised and desperate, you have to wonder whether they'd be in these brothels, anyway.

I don't know how you would stop men from taking over on the brothel ownership, I said in an earlier post that it'd all be fine if women themselves ran things, but men hold most money and power, so the balance is tipped in favour of investment setting up massive operations, I'm not talking about the little house with three indie girls living in it, men having power in this industry is THE problem

 

[Johnny Vodka]

edit: when you go to their site it says this first- so it looks like women make their own terms and are just choosing to use the mega-brothel's facilities to work in? View attachment 84481

Yeah, but they're charged a fair whack of rent by the owners.

 

[pengaleng]

Legalisation involves a regulatory framework around sex work; essentially, it's to protect polite society e.g. by ghettoising sex workers. Whereas, in theory at least, decriminalisation is aimed at reducing the harm to sex workers.

what harm will decriminalisation reduce?

 

[Athos]

I don't know how you would stop men from taking over on the brothel ownership, I said in an earlier post that it'd all be fine if women themselves ran things, but men hold most money and power, so the balance is tipped in favour of investment setting up massive operations, I'm not talking about the little house with three indie girls living in it, men having power in this industry is THE problem

Those who'd benefit are those who own the capital, which, in the vast majority of cases would be men, I'm sure.

 

[pengaleng]

Yeah, but they're charged a fair whack of rent by the owners.

well yeah lol nothing is for free, it'd be a percentage of earnings or a house fee depending on setup

 

[Johnny Vodka]

what harm will decriminalisation reduce?

It might stop sex workers getting busted by cops. It might stop buyers getting busted by cops. I though there was an argument that if buyers can get busted, then workers need to move to areas without cctv, which puts them in more danger.

 

[Athos]

what harm will decriminalisation reduce?

I'm very sceptical that it would; I was just explaining the usually understood distinction.

 

[pengaleng]

Those who'd benefit are those who own the capital, which, in the vast majority of cases would be men, I'm sure.

dudes love pimping

 

[pengaleng]

It might stop sex workers getting busted by cops. It might stop buyers getting busted by cops. I though there was an argument that if buyers can get busted, then workers need to move to areas without cctv, which puts them in more danger.

so you think solicitation is ok? bearing in mind no one does that unless they have nowhere else to go or are being pimped or addicted to drugs or lacking education etc possible theories because it's the highest risk carrier? who is getting busted by police its not anyone I know ???

 

[bimble]

so you think solicitation is ok? bearing in mind no one does that unless they have nowhere else to go or are being pimped or addicted to drugs or lacking education? who is getting busted by police its not anyone I know ???

Isn't that the point though? The idea of changing the status quo is about helping those who are the worst off, so the people you're talking about there.
Far as I can tell the idea is that if those people weren't forced to operate outside the law, in fear of arrest, they are more likely to report crimes against them, get help when they need it, that sort of thing?

 

[Athos]

edit: when you go to their site it says this first- so it looks like women make their own terms and are just choosing to use the mega-brothel's facilities to work in?

License to print money, eh?

Just think it through for a second.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

so you think solicitation is ok?

Dunno. I am aware of the knock on effect for women who walk through areas where this takes place, but at the same time I'm interested in reducing harm to workers. Also, if these women are the most vulnerable and face the problems you mention, I'd be hoping for projects to help them rather than just make sex work easier.

 

[pengaleng]

raaa I give up, I suppose being pimped and handing over half of your money if not all of it to someone is 100% better when you aren't called a criminal. you lot are fucking dense.

 

[bimble]

Athos not saying the mega-brothels are some sort of a Good Thing. Massive profits going into a very few (men's) hands no doubt, but is it safer to rent a room in there? probably. Do you think the women using that place to work in were better off before it was built? (real question)

 

[pengaleng]

you are so simple it hurts.

 

[bimble]

ouch. i did have to google kankerhoer.