Decriminalisation of the sex industry - Corbyn says yes, what thinks urban?

[bimble]

I don't get what the argument against is. Is it a bit like 'the war on drugs'?
These people and other similar groups who claim to speak for sex workers agree with Corbyn's (vague) statement anyway.
We support Jeremy Corbyn on decriminalisation - prostitutescollective

 

[pengaleng]

the regular working persons at loads of shit places get fucked over on the regular, why would you as an independent self employed worker in a free market want it regulated (when it's already doing just fine) with an added boom in competition that forces you to compete with much lower rates as big providers with their advertising and money come along opening up huge establishments. it'd still create a heirachy whereby those with the option of 'choice' can afford to continue independently while the desperate girls all compete together forced into working at poundbrothel on a zero hours contract. think about those who don't want to do it there would be the social pressure of WHY you don't want to do that perfectly socially acceptable work, why don't you want to do something that easy? and if you think the coerced pimping side of it is darkside now then after being given a green light what do you think will happen?

why do you all think that turning independent businesses into asda is a good idea?

what do people think will happen? it'll be decriminalised and overnight women in the sex industry will gain respect?

as it stands all every single recent online sex work documentary has managed to do is create more competition without more paying traffic, more girls competing with cheaper rates + same amount of paying traffic = a shitty business model

the reason it's good money is because of the taboo, take the taboo away and it becomes a normal thing for normal prices, there will always be a girl who will do it cheaper, competition is already fierce

I dont really care either way how it goes, cus its out of my hands, but if it has to happen then women need to run that shit. men can gtfo and handle their own shit cus from what I see online a lot is how girls cant stand working for men, but it's men who run the sites creaming off profit for essentially doing not a fucking lot, the girls resent this but to start up a competing online business like that requires so much investment none of them can afford it, I know some have set up a couple of file sharing sites for selling and hosting independent videos, but really nothing is run by solely by women even if we wish it were because of our history, but thats some next level shit.

I think this is where liberalism and real life clash, I know you all want everyone to 'have rights', but girls do have the same rights as any other self employed person and perpetuating that they all need unionising to make everyone free/safe is a bit of a smack in the face when it has never been easier to screen people or talk to others in the same industry or get feedback about potential clients or warn others about a risky person. don't adhere to screening = you don't see me.

I dont think a lot of people have thought about the way business works and are concentrating on 'rights' without knowing anything

I dont understand the move to 'legalise and regulate or decriminalise' when it wouldn't actually give independent workers any more rights as a self employed person unless it's about moving people into brothels and creating more wealth for big business ie:men

 

[bimble]

Doing sexual acts for money is work, the idea that it should be treated as somehow categorically different from any other kind of labour rented by the hour seems like a strange idea that should have to explain itself first.
I don't get why it shouldn't be treated as a job, like any other job, & that has nothing to do with posturing about 'empowerment/ choice'.
I know someone who has a very nice dominatrix website and enjoys what she does and pays her taxes etc but that's really not the point, she's fine, the law is about protecting the vulnerable, so how does 'solicitation' being a crime help anybody?

Edit: i posted that before the thing above but .. still stands:
You're basically just saying 'if it's legal there'll be more competition for decent pay', So if fewer women were forced to work for free/ for £5 that would be a bad thing for those who are all set up with their own ltd company .

 

[pengaleng]

I never said it wasn't work.

If you think having sex with someone for money is an equivalent to working retail then I just don't know what to say, try it?

I'm not the one not treating it like a job, it being seen as a legitimate job is a concern for the individual, it's just peoples opinion, you cannot force someone to change their opinion of what constitutes work to them, so what if someone thinks you don't have a real job, seriously what difference does it make, chugging isn't a real job imo, you dont have a human right for your work to be seen as acceptable, cleaning isn't acceptable work to a lot of people, what about people who already look down on them? just cus you get a union or whatever it doesn't mean people aren't going to still judge what you do for a living

I'm not talking about solicitation, thats something imo someone does when they are legitimately desperate for whatever reason or being pimped as it's an extremely risky thing to do, no one I know of does it I don't look down on anyone who does that, if it's by choice there are far better ways to go about things, I am speaking of independent escorts who run their own thing advertising and booking online, screening people, getting references, escorting is not solicitation, prostitution is not escorting

you have to be careful with the terms; solicitation - illegal, street corners, unknown men, high risk of std, risk of arrest, high risk of assault due to offenders knowing they have anonymity. prostitution: legal, selling sex acts w/clients, ie:15,20,30 min time slots / price per act, low risk due to references/screening. Escorting: legal, time is what they pay for, sex may or may not occur, low risk due to references and screening, time booked by the hour. theres fine lines between escorting/prostitution, but this is basic

who is currently forced to work for free, or as slaves, or for £5 lol I didn't say there would be more competition for decent pay at all, as higher competition generally forces rates down everywhere across all business. I'd not let anyone put their dick near me for national living wage, do you think people should? imo the sex trafficking thing has been hyped up and trafficked victims have become a weird reason to 'legalise' prostitution, but it's so mad to me cus it's not illegal and those involved have exactly the same rights as any other self employed person.

imagine a massive brothel opened up housing 100 girls, bar, poles, bedrooms, the lot, they are charging two thirds of your independent rate and this thing is being advertised everywhere, what do you think a man is going to do?

clue: bye felica!

 

[bimble]

who is currently forced to work for free, or as slaves, or for £5 lol

I think quite a lot of women are, just down the road from me, and on 'livejasmine' etc. but it's true that a change in the law would not help them immediately.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Decriminalisation in the sense of simply turning a blind eye would be unlikely to reduce the amount of actual criminality going on. And by criminality I don't mean sex work itself but the violence, exploitation, human trafficking and numerous other bad things that go hand in hand with it. Sex workers have rights and those rights should be protected as vigorously as everyone else's.

The one right that all workers must have is the right to choose what they do for a living. At present this right isn't a reality for many people, and sex work is just a special case which illustrates more clearly than any other why it should be. People were rightly up in arms about JSA claimants being required to apply for jobs in strip clubs or face losing their benefits, but in general the idea of leaving people destitute if they don't accept x or y job goes largely unchallenged.

Assuming we're not going to dismantle capitalism any time soon though, and assuming that there will be a market for sex work for the forseeble future, something needs to change. The only sensible way to do this is to ask sex workers what changes they think should be made. I can't see any politician or political party doing this in a meangingful way any time soon.

 

[pengaleng]

I think quite a lot of women are, just down the road from me, and on 'livejasmine' etc. but it's true that a change in the law would not help them immediately.

but thats the thing, you think you know

lol lj

most of the girls on that site work for studios in eastern europe, they are a really bad site to work for, but many ee girls have little choice and there is little that can be done for them in this country as they are there and not here, the site also forces you to complete x amount of hours at the lowest rate, you have to achieve higher rates by working more, they regularly screw people over by deleting them before they make payout and keeping all the money, it's not a good site at all, loads of freeloading abusive arseholes because they advertise on free tube sites as being free - go figure

eastern europe is a problem in that a lot of sites will only accept girls via studios due to fraud who don't allow them to set their own rates etc depending on the site they are on, not speaking english fluently seems to be a barrier to making money and on top of that I've heard that english speaking men will more often treat you like complete shit and will expect you to have lower prices

another thing is that we've no idea if these girls are being forced or manipulated or coerced, some of them don't look very happy, the whole thing is really sad, not many can save up and move country, a forum I'm on we always tell girls to put their rates up, you should never lower, but so many do lower due to higher competition

if we decrim/legalise prostitution it wont help those girls at all, they will still be on that site charging really low rates per min

 

[bimble]

I know livejasmine is mainly eastern european women, but just maybe a change in the law here would help them get out of that shit situation and find a new route to the UK market.
Basically you're saying keep the law as it is because changing it might mean more women legitimately & independently competing for the available business & competition in capitalism = good for the punter so prices overall would drop. ok.

 

[pengaleng]

Decriminalisation in the sense of simply turning a blind eye would be unlikely to reduce the amount of actual criminality going on. And by criminality I don't mean sex work itself but the violence, exploitation, human trafficking and numerous other bad things that go hand in hand with it. Sex workers have rights and those rights should be protected as vigorously as everyone else's.

The one right that all workers must have is the right to choose what they do for a living. At present this right isn't a reality for many people, and sex work is just a special case which illustrates more clearly than any other why it should be. People were rightly up in arms about JSA claimants being required to apply for jobs in strip clubs or face losing their benefits, but in general the idea of leaving people destitute if they don't accept x or y job goes largely unchallenged.

Assuming we're not going to dismantle capitalism any time soon though, and assuming that there will be a market for sex work for the forseeble future, something needs to change. The only sensible way to do this is to ask sex workers what changes they think should be made. I can't see any politician or political party doing this in a meangingful way any time soon.

it's not a choice to just do sex work though for some people it's a choice between letting their kids starve or sucking some random off so you can buy them food, what about the choice between having another atos medical and going through the stress again or easily having sex for money to sustain yourself - you have to ask is that really a choice? because this and many other reasons are why some women turn to sex work

 

[pengaleng]

I know livejasmine is mainly eastern european women, but just maybe a change in the law here would help them get out of that shit situation and find a new route to the UK market.
Basically you're saying keep the law as it is because changing it might mean more women legitimately & independently competing for the available business & competition in capitalism = good for the punter so prices overall would drop. ok.

a change in the law here would help them by what? paying for their flight over here? I think that's reaching.

you really aren't getting it.

I'm not gonna sit here dissecting how it works for you, but how is anyone supposed to make bank anymore if the market is over saturated....

 

[bimble]

ok. It looks like your view on the thing is a lot like the 'war on drugs'; keep it illegal / 'taboo' = keep the prices artificially high. Which is good for some people but probably not for the majority.
Cheap imports are a part of life now, is your tv made in the uk? Is the law around prostitution a bit like the protectionism of the EU farmers subsidies?

 

[pengaleng]

ok. From where i'm sitting it still looks like your view on the thing is a lot like the 'war on drugs'; keep it illegal / 'taboo' = keep the prices artificially high. Which is good for some people but probably not for the majority.
Cheap imports are a part of life now, is your tv made in the uk? Is the law around prostitution a bit like the protectionism of the EU farmers subsidies?

I cant even.... what?

taboo as in societies attitude.... its not the same as illegal/legal is it because escorting/prostitution is legal (if it wasn't then escort listing/agency sites would be shut down wouldn't they and HMRC wouldn't be able to tax their income), running a brothel and soliciting is what is illegal

do you think men have a right to cheap sex or something?

would you want someone else deciding how much you are worth?

cheap imports??? seriously did you just say that in a discussion about women in the sex industry??? what the fuck? and comparing cheap sex with women to cheap deals on tv's??? this is what men do.

I'm done.

 

[pengaleng]

.

 

[bimble]

ok. i didn't want to fight with you & sorry for pissing you off.
You are defending the status quo, I'm asking about it, it was not intended to get personal I only wanted you to explain why in other threads you were so outspokenly anti the idea of decriminalising sex work .

​

 

[pengaleng]

raaaa this did actually happen.... I keep reading it like did they actually say that shit???

no defence of their shit attitude towards women and focussing on the punter getting a 'good deal' you've shown your hand.

Kankerhoer.

 

[Teaboy]

I'm not sure legalizing prostitution in Germany has been such a great success. Sure there are shiny big brothels which have loads of security guards which I'm sure are safe enough but the girls must have to be a fair rent on those places. There are also still girls from poorer countries walking the streets. I don't know how a change in the law has made their lot any better.

 

[pengaleng]

I find it interesting how people rationalise it to themselves based on a few arguments about 'work should be work' coming from an american liberal viewpoint, it's not really an argument in this country imo:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Prostitution in the United States is illegal in the vast majority of the United States, as a result of state laws rather than federal laws. It is, however, legal in some rural counties of the state of Nevada. Prostitution is nevertheless present in most parts of the country, in various forms.

In Great Britain (England, Wales and Scotland), prostitution itself (the exchange of sexual services for money) is legal,[2] but a number of related activities, including soliciting in a public place, kerb crawling, owning or managing a brothel, pimping and pandering, are crimes. In Northern Ireland, which previously had similar laws, paying for sex became illegal on 1 June 2015.[3]

In England and Wales, it is an offence to pay for sex with a prostitute who has been “subjected to force” and this is a strict liability offence (clients can be prosecuted even if they did not know the prostitute was forced).

Laws are not always strictly enforced, and many brothels in cities such as Manchester and London operate under the name "Massage parlours", with police forces often turning a blind eye to such establishments.[citation needed]

Throughout Great Britain it is illegal to buy sex from a person younger than 18, although the age of consent for non-commercial sex is 16 throughout the United Kingdom.

it becomes about changing societies attitude towards sex work which is in itself sends a mixed message because if the aim is obtaining respect for women and young boys are to be taught how to respect women how does this align with the ability to pay for sex on demand? because however nice a man is to you, however polite, however seemingly respectful he is that man is still giving you money for access to your body which is not imo a respectful act at all, they can justify that it is though because y'know they have a right to buy sex and thats ok (just make sure you are nice to her)

liberals love to paint the sex industry as some big fluffy fun love in, some people do sex work yay! and thats ok! but seriously anyone who doesn't have the ability to be critical or self critical about the subject or think about why it might be a bad thing doesn't really deserve to be listened to, there are some really smart girls not giving a shit about this because they are making real money and doing perfectly legal work already and as for workers rights they have exactly the same ones as any other self employed person. this isnt about rights at all imo, has anyone ever wondered let alone questioned why this is the only area that mens rights activists 'support' women having rights? since when has prostitution been about being a good deal for the punter?



got any response yet, binbag?

 

[Cid]

I don't get what the argument against is. Is it a bit like 'the war on drugs'?

The obvious difference would be that in the war on drugs the commodities are drugs, whereas in prostitution they're people.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

got any response yet, binbag?

That's a bit shit to bimble just for having a different opinion to you.

If it were legalised, at least it could be discussed openly. How about minimum pricing for acts so girls can't undercut each other until its 3 shags for £50? (Slightly tongue in cheek.) Would legalisation see more women view it as a legitimate work option? I doubt it...

Also many people who would legalise probably support measures to stop the most vulnerable being forced into it, people trafficking, etc, and may well hope for less prostitution overall.

 

[bimble]

I admitted from the start that i'm ignorant about this, my hope was to find out why people think decriminalisation would be a bad thing. I still don't get that to be honest. It's not the same as legalisation, which would have it's own set of problems for sure.
Amnesty's campaign is helpful in explaining the difference.
Amnesty International is Q&A: policy to protect the human rights of sex workers

 

[Athos]

Jesus. Does it really need to be said that a starting point for making things better for sex workers would be to listen to the views of sex workers?!

 

[Athos]

I admitted from the start that i'm ignorant about this, my hope was to find out why people think decriminalisation would be a bad thing. I still don't get that to be honest. It's not the same as legalisation, which would have it's own set of problems for sure.
Amnesty's campaign is helpful in explaining the difference.
Amnesty International is Q&A: policy to protect the human rights of sex workers

Specifically, which (currently illegal) conduct are you talking about decriminalising?

 

[speedstar]

I am a "sex-worker" and I agree with Corbyn.

Sex workers are working people too and Labour is supposed to be the party representing working people.

 

[bimble]

Specifically, which (currently illegal) conduct are you talking about decriminalising?

One thing is that currently, 'brother keeping' is a criminal offence, and that forces women into isolation, because working together can lead to being arrested? That sounds stupid far as I can see. Also soliciting is illegal, whilst paying for sex isn't. How does that help?

 

[bimble]

Why I'm a sex worker and a Corbyn supporter

 

[Athos]

One thing is that currently, 'brother keeping' is a criminal offence, and that forces women into isolation, because working together can lead to being arrested? That sounds stupid far as I can see. Also soliciting is illegal, whilst paying for sex isn't. How does that help?

Ok, let's take the first one: keeping a brothel. What do you think would happen if that was decriminalised? Specifically, who would benefit and how, and who would would be worse off and how?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Ok, let's take the first one: keeping a brothel. What do you think would happen if that was decriminalised? Specifically, who would benefit and how, and who would would be worse off and how?

Depends how it's done. Specifically, women who want to team up in small groups could be better off, as doing so is currently illegal.

tbh I'm surprised when anyone defends the status quo - it's inconsistent and hypocritical. It could be worse, but the only defence of not changing it is to say that every alternative is even worse than this bad option. New Zealand's example shows positives - others, such as Germany and Netherlands less so.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

I admitted from the start that i'm ignorant about this, my hope was to find out why people think decriminalisation would be a bad thing. I still don't get that to be honest. It's not the same as legalisation, which would have it's own set of problems for sure.
Amnesty's campaign is helpful in explaining the difference.
Amnesty International is Q&A: policy to protect the human rights of sex workers

Interesting article. I'd always thought regulation sounded best (maybe because I think of this issue as similar to the liberalisation of drug laws, and regulation fits what I'd want to see in a drug market), but decriminalisation (pretty much legalisation without regulation?) sounds better for workers. In any case, the workers should be listened to when it comes to deciding what to do.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

tbh I'm surprised when anyone defends the status quo - it's inconsistent and hypocritical. It could be worse, but the only defence of not changing it is to say that every alternative is even worse than this bad option. New Zealand's example shows positives - others, such as Germany and Netherlands less so.

It's surely not just about laws surrounding sex work, but how society deals with issues which feed into sex work?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's surely not just about laws surrounding sex work, but how society deals with issues which feed into sex work?

Yep. Different societies with different conditions are going to react differently. My fear with the UK as it is currently would be that legalisation would increase opportunities for exploitation.

However, changing the law can change attitudes. Last time I posted about this on here, I linked to interviews with sex workers in NZ who felt less stigma and far more in control since legalisation.