Dealing With the Renegades - Revisited

[Joe Reilly]

just under 20% though is a frightening figure.What percentage would we have seen in the 80s?

Given the earlier furore about the implausibility of the united front theory, I was amused to stumble across this quote from Thursday's Independent:

"After being locked up members of rival 'postcode gangs' from London had buried their differences to foem city-wide groupings when they were moved to other parts of the country".
(Nick Hardwick Chief Inspector of Prisons)

Which is more ambitious than the borough-wide groupings that implemented the rioting in London.

As to the wider question of gang participation of the suspected rioters captured so far - those with records(73 per cent) had committed an average of 15 offences, (which makes you think, that if they weren't already in gangs then they really out to be!) and rather makes a mockery of T. May's attempt to play down the role of the gangs last week. Of the 865 jailed thus far, over 350 are in the 15 -20 age bracket which is fairly sobering.

These latest stats surely now leave little doubt as to the almost entirely lumpen nature of the operation.

 

[The Black Hand]

The lumpen are those who have been driven into long term unemployment, initially through no fault of their own, who then adjust to it financially and in other ways. Thereafter they make no contribution and have no intention of making any. It is a parasitic existence. They live off society. They do so brazenly. Which is historically one of the defining charachteristics of that class.

This is dangerous shit. But mostly shit.

You have absolutely no understanding of the informal economies out there.

 

[past caring]

Smuggled tobacco as revolutionary practice, again? You're a fucking clown.

 

[The Black Hand]

parasites now, this is getting more and more Daily Express by the moment.

Except it's not of course, not really because the prescriptions for what to do about it differ. At least I would hope so. For the Daily Express (not that I read it, you understand) cutting off benefits, evicting social tenants and strong, probably zero tolerance, policing are the answer. That's clear, simple and completely barking.

However I'm still not really sure just what the IWCA prescription amounts to. The original article made reference to driving rather vague wedges and the tantalising, but unexplained "political authority to exclude", which was subsequently fleshed out a bit with the story of the drug gang run off Blackbird Leys estate a few years back.

What I don't get is how that's supposed to translate to the vast majority of the working class lives I see, people who don't live on giant, out-of-town, estates, but in mixed up communities of prosperous and skint, living on benefits or working in myriad ways for who knows who, an almost random mix of social or private tenants and owner occupiers, living in the patchwork that is London in 2011.

Is Neighbourhood Watch with political teeth the model, with street committees and net curtain twitching? Probably not, so what is?

How does 'the working class' or 'the community', whatever those terms might mean, express themselves? And, given that what you call 'lumpen' are the sons and daughters of my neighbours, why do you think that exclusion and driving wedges is what would be wanted even if such expression were possible?

There is on this thread old leftism being dressed up, with little addition, but a mere blending with right wing simplifications about complex issues. Lumpen is a content less category here? This use is lazy, is it defined? IS it quantified, and/or periodised? There seems to be no consideration of economic conditions and the precariousness of economic life now for masses of people. This is qualitatively different from what has gone before, and simplistic anaylsis is never a solution, merely part of the problem.

The problem is that there are now so many people who are precarious on the estates that all the IWCA (sic) will be able to offer in terms of differentiating who is 'good' and who is 'to be excluded' is whichever (whoever) vigilante is willing to say somebody is 'good' or 'bad' - all of which are premodern forms, barbaric even. Its a nightmare scenario and thankfully is going nowhere. Attempts at doing this will split any estate, simply cos of the extended kinship and community contacts. The only way I could see it 'working' is if theres a completely anti social isolated loner to be picked upon, and that is not a politics progressive people would want to go anywhere near, I cannot see it of being of any strategic, tactical or political interest. Mass class justice against the class enemy, and now you're talking!!

 

[The Black Hand]

Smuggled tobacco as revolutionary practice, again? You're a fucking clown.

Wanker! you're the one banging on about that, I said 'informal economies' (go research and come back in a few months when you've read some of the literature). But seriously, you have no idea. There is a lot of blind folk around here pretending. Its sad to see. None of you have any idea of criminal markets, informal markets, organised crime, and their complexities, nuances, and blurring of organisational forms. Do carry on, you remind me constantly why I have little, if any, regard for your contributions.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

There is on this thread old leftism being dressed up, with little addition, but a mere blending with right wing simplifications about complex issues. Lumpen is a content less category here? This use is lazy, is it defined? IS it quantified, and/or periodised? There seems to be no consideration of economic conditions and the precariousness of economic life now for masses of people. This is qualitatively different from what has gone before, and simplistic anaylsis is never a solution, merely part of the problem.

The analytic value of the term 'lumpen-proletariat' is historically limited. Its original use pertains to the revolutionary upheavals of the nineteenth century, the advancing bourgeoisie and the rise of working class movements. Reactionaries, who drew on the 'lumpen' for support, opposed both. It's anachronistic and, in any case, has no relevance here in our context - absolutely none.

Not that the above matters when one's purpose is to promote artificial divisions and dismiss insurrection of some of the most divested members of the working-class.

 

[past caring]

"Me, me, me" is insurrection now? Join the Black Hand in the new International Association of the Self-Deluded. Fucking shower.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

"Me, me, me" is insurrection now? Join the Black Hand in the new International Association of the Self-Deluded. Fucking shower.

Yeah, that's right. . . Riots were an outburst of criminality. They were carried out by riff raff, who are just scum. Nothing else could or need be thought or acknowledged of the riots - such would be 'self-delusion'. The dangerous underclass and the welfare state, the 'me, me, me culture', and whatever else sober minds like past caring and the Daily Mail hold responsible, are to blame.

I already showered thanks. . .

 

[The Black Hand]

"Me, me, me" is insurrection now? Join the Black Hand in the new International Association of the Self-Deluded. Fucking shower.

You're the fekking shower, I mean, you can't even grapple with fairly basic political points I have made.

It is you goons who have the uneducated problems, not up to the task of meeting reasonable arguments on bulletin boards never mind reaching realistic politics that can engage with the multitude.

Bye, when you get an argument please do share it.

 

[The39thStep]

This is dangerous shit. But mostly shit.

You have absolutely no understanding of the informal economies out there.

I woukld hazard a guess that it would take the services of a well paid full time academic if were were to.

 

[LLETSA]

I woukld hazard a guess that it would take the services of a well paid full time academic if were were to.

'The multitude' needs enlightened academics.

 

[The Black Hand]

I woukld hazard a guess that it would take the services of a well paid full time academic if were were to.

No, it just takes people to understand the differences, and not to fuse essentially different things when coming up with simplistic solutions, which turn out to not be solutions at all.

 

[The Black Hand]

'The multitude' needs enlightened academics.

The multitudes needs are the same as humanitys has always been, just as Marx said, what people need before they can make history.

 

[LLETSA]

No, it just takes people to understand the differences, and not to fuse essentially different things when coming up with simplistic solutions, which turn out to not be solutions at all.

I think you'd be better received if you gave us a summary of your solutions.

 

[LLETSA]

The multitudes needs are the same as humanitys has always been, just as Marx said, what people need before they can make history.

Oh right.

 

[The Black Hand]

Oh right.

You should know that old lefty.

 

[The Black Hand]

I think you'd be better received if you gave us a summary of your solutions.

Solutions to what?

 

[LLETSA]

Solutions to what?

You're the one who introduced solutions.

 

[past caring]

Don't confuse him!

 

[Joe Reilly]

Yeah, that's right. . . Riots were an outburst of criminality. They were carried out by riff raff, who are just scum. Nothing else could or need be thought or acknowledged of the riots - such would be 'self-delusion'. The dangerous underclass and the welfare state, the 'me, me, me culture', and whatever else sober minds like past caring and the Daily Mail hold responsible, are to blame.

So like the others deniers on here you think the 30 years of neo-liberalism imposed on working class communities has left them intact, untarnished, resilient? That the type of gangs that have emerged form the debris, who give initiates the choice of raping, stabbing someone or eating dog shit, can be found in all previous generations?

Of course they do actually give them the choice, which you'll probably find encouraging.

 

[Joe Reilly]

The analytic value of the term 'lumpen-proletariat' is historically limited. Its original use pertains to the revolutionary upheavals of the nineteenth century, the advancing bourgeoisie and the rise of working class movements. Reactionaries, who drew on the 'lumpen' for support, opposed both.

The bit your missing is that the lumpen are determined by economic conditions as with all other classes.

 

[smokedout]

So like the others deniers on here you think the 30 years of neo-liberalism imposed on working class communities has left them intact, untarnished, resilient? That the type of gangs that have emerged form the debris, who give initiates the choice of raping, stabbing someone or eating dog shit, can be found in all previous generations?

Of course they do actually give them the choice, which you'll probably find encouraging.

when i was growing up the local football firm were pretty much a far right front. they controlled much of the city centre and several clubs/pubs were no go areas. they mostly concerned themselves with gay and paki bashing or picking fights with punks/goths/students or anyone who looked a bit strange in their eyes. the more alternative parts of the city were controlled by a gang or brothers who had a long history of violent crime, one of whom once glassed a 15 year girl i was friends with. they were involved in a bitter ongoing fight with the local motorbike chapter who werent averse to taking a black and decker to someones knee caps if they rubbed them up the wrong way. many of my closest friends at the time did time for offences ranging from GBH to attempted murder, almost everyone i know carried a weapon. more locally a two criminal families were amongst the most feared (and id have to stay respected) part of the community. onefamily worked for the other, they were tainted a little when their son was banged up for raping an 84 year old woman, but they still managed to keep a certain power base. as to the other, well their sons would regularly get pissed and beat the shit out of anyone who they took a dislike to, they were also involved in the fire arms trade and emerging drugs trade. back in town, class A drugs were being openly sold on the 'frontline' as it was known, although there were often bitter fights between rival gangs, often involving knives, unless someone was critically injured then the police pretty much turned a blind eye. i barely remember a night out when their wasnt some kind of fight, usually pointless and often involving weapons, both the pakistani areas and white estates on the outskirts of the city regularly rioted and fights often broke out in town - where asian cab drivers had been attacked so much they had formed a defence force of guys with radios who drove around the city tooled up all night on hand in case a cabbie got in trouble - outside of the asian ghetto most pakistani owned shops were boarded up and sprayed with swastikas. my great auntie, who had downes syndrome, was forced to move after having dog shit and fire works posted through her letterbox and being routinely abused by local kids - fire was a common theme, arson was common place and after a major disaster at the football stadium which claimed 56 lives the local opposing team turned up at the opening of the stadium and set fire to a burger van and rolled it down the terraces whilst singing songs about how they were going to burn it down again.

they were the days - working class proper folk enjoying the rambunctiousness of working class life

 

[LLETSA]

when i was growing up the local football firm were pretty much a far right front. they controlled much of the city centre and several clubs/pubs were no go areas. they mostly concerned themselves with gay and paki bashing or picking fights with punks/goths/students or anyone who looked a bit strange in their eyes. the more alternative parts of the city were controlled by a gang or brothers who had a long history of violent crime, one of whom once glassed a 15 year girl i was friends with. they were involved in a bitter ongoing fight with the local motorbike chapter who werent averse to taking a black and decker to someones knee caps if they rubbed them up the wrong way. many of my closest friends at the time did time for offences ranging from GBH to attempted murder, almost everyone i know carried a weapon. more locally a two criminal families were amongst the most feared (and id have to stay respected) part of the community. onefamily worked for the other, they were tainted a little when their son was banged up for raping an 84 year old woman, but they still managed to keep a certain power base. as to the other, well their sons would regularly get pissed and beat the shit out of anyone who they took a dislike to, they were also involved in the fire arms trade and emerging drugs trade. back in town, class A drugs were being openly sold on the 'frontline' as it was known, although there were often bitter fights between rival gangs, often involving knives, unless someone was critically injured then the police pretty much turned a blind eye. i barely remember a night out when their wasnt some kind of fight, usually pointless and often involving weapons, both the pakistani areas and white estates on the outskirts of the city regularly rioted and fights often broke out in town - where asian cab drivers had been attacked so much they had formed a defence force of guys with radios who drove around the city tooled up all night on hand in case a cabbie got in trouble - outside of the asian ghetto most pakistani owned shops were boarded up and sprayed with swastikas. my great auntie, who had downes syndrome, was forced to move after having dog shit and fire works posted through her letterbox and being routinely abused by local kids - fire was a common theme, arson was common place and after a major disaster at the football stadium which claimed 56 lives the local opposing team turned up at the opening of the stadium and set fire to a burger van and rolled it down the terraces whilst singing songs about how they were going to burn it down again.

they were the days - working class proper folk enjoying the rambunctiousness of working class life

I could give you similar stories from my own upbringing. The point is that working class communities were, thirty-plus years ago, more intact than they are now, with a sense of solidarity, despite the presence of thsoe who had no regard for it, resting on industries and an organised working class now absent.

 

[butchersapron]

... fire was a common theme, arson was common place and after a major disaster at the football stadium which claimed 56 lives the local opposing team turned up at the opening of the stadium and set fire to a burger van and rolled it down the terraces whilst singing songs about how they were going to burn it down again.

they were the days - working class proper folk enjoying the rambunctiousness of working class life

The burger van set on fire was at Odsal.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

So like the others deniers on here you think the 30 years of neo-liberalism imposed on working class communities has left them intact, untarnished, resilient? That the type of gangs that have emerged form the debris, who give initiates the choice of raping, stabbing someone or eating dog shit, can be found in all previous generations?

Well, gangs have been around for a long time. But are you trying to say the rioting was by gangs? Nor were all the rioters unemployed people, and some of them were middle class.

Almost no-one would deny the damage done to working class communities over three decades of neo-liberal immiseration and disempowerment. The renewed onslaught against the working class produced the enraged, if short-sighted, response that we saw in the riots. In absence of a strong left with a national body to fight the neoliberal agenda that's the kind of outburst we'll get.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

The bit your missing is that the lumpen are determined by economic conditions as with all other classes.

Economic conditions that no longer exist. There isn't a "lumpen proletariat".

 

[smokedout]

The burger van set on fire was at Odsal.

picky, was at a city game though as i recall, they played at odsal for a bit after the fire

 

[smokedout]

I could give you similar stories from my own upbringing. The point is that working class communities were, thirty-plus years ago, more intact than they are now, with a sense of solidarity, despite the presence of thsoe who had no regard for it, resting on industries and an organised working class now absent.

i dont disagree with that as such, though you could say the working class faced different problems then

the point is that you could write a piece of hyperbole about any period in working class life over the last 200 years and use it as an example of how terrible the kids are today, but there isnt actually any real evidence that they are

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Economic conditions that no longer exist. There isn't a "lumpen proletariat".

If that description makes you queasy how about "a new -and growing- social formation that has willingly embraced a non-work ethic"??

Alternatively, perhaps you reject the very concept of a growing 'formation' amongst the working class that through it's behaviour, codes and values actively diminishes the ability of our class to recover confidence, take back some control and become a political threat to capitalist? In which case you've clearly missed the last 30 years.

Just wondering like....

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Well, gangs have been around for a long time. But are you trying to say the rioting was by gangs? Nor were all the rioters unemployed people, and some of them were middle class.

All of the evidence suggests that the looting/rioting was in many cases controlled by the gangs. Obviously others were involved but there has a clear hierarchy with the big boys getting first go at the loot after they arranged for the windows to be put in.