Dealing With the Renegades - Revisited

[smokedout]

I can understand (intellectually, if not emotionally) why people end up as bailiffs and coppers and screws.

i dont think the analogy is fair at all, firstly we've established that most of the people defined as lumpen come from the very poorest backgrounds, the economic underclass if not the moral one - this is far from true of coppers and much less true of bailiffs and screws

but more importantly the people you are talking about are children, there is a big difference between the organised and ongoing class treachery of the filth and a kid who joins a gang cos he's scared of being bullied or gets carried away and does something stupid in the heat of the moment

 

[cogg]

Give over, your deliberately talking shite! You've not tackled the political point as per, that that sort of 'i believe' nonsense is old lefty crap, and you've not got over it. Infact all your groups behaviour over this site shows that you are stale old left. I deliberately have nothing to do with that sort of ideology and behaviour.

Joes nowhere but stuck in the past, like all you IWCA dorx, you're soooo like the ICC or any other ultra left cult its always painful to read the next installment. As for spelin hagalian max ism I really do not give a toss about such ignorant comments.

Ha, ha... Incoherent as ever.

 

[The Black Hand]

Ha, ha... Incoherent as ever.

Orly... bollox

 

[Joe Reilly]

[quote="Ibn Khaldoun, post: 10506338" No wonder they allude to right-wing academics - they're doing their work for them![/quote]

What right -wing academics are these then?

 

[smokedout]

Gangs did not play a pivotal role in the August riots, according to the latest official analysis of those arrested during the disturbances.

The official figures show that 13% of those arrested in the riots have been identified as gang members, rising to 19% in London, but the analysis shows that even where the police identified gang members being present most forces believe they did not play a pivotal role.

The finding by senior Whitehall officials is a blow to the principal response to the riots being pushed strongly by the work and pensions secretary, Iain Duncan Smith – that tackling gang culture is key to preventing any repeat of the disturbances.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/oct/24/riots-analysis-gangs-no-pivotal-role

 

[Joe Reilly]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/oct/24/riots-analysis-gangs-no-pivotal-role

God loves a trier. Lol!

 

[smokedout]

them's the stats, doesnt leave much room for your gang conspiracy theory does it?

 

[LiamO]

them's the stats, doesnt leave much room for your gang conspiracy theory does it?

How, specifically, does the percentage of 'gang members' amongst the arrested show this? IME being in an experienced 'firm' (whether in a riot, at football or at a demo) means you are far less likely to be still around when the plod happen along and arrest the stragglers, the runners and the casualties.

For example, if you were dependent on arrest figures to indicate Red Action's influence on AFA-led mobilisations back in the day, you could only conclude that RA had a very minimal presence. Eye-witness accounts would tell a vastly different story.

So yes actually, the stats do leave plenty of room etc... and if you had any experience of mass street confrontation (of any kind) you would be only too well aware of this. But feel free to continue this debate with people who have many years experience of it.

 

[LLETSA]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/oct/24/riots-analysis-gangs-no-pivotal-role

Funny how some self-styled rebels are ready to look to the establishment for succour when it suits their preconceptions.

 

[smokedout]

Given the earlier furore about the implausibility of the united front theory, I was amused to stumble across this quote from Thursday's Independent:

"After being locked up members of rival 'postcode gangs' from London had buried their differences to foem city-wide groupings when they were moved to other parts of the country".
(Nick Hardwick Chief Inspector of Prisons)

Which is more ambitious than the borough-wide groupings that implemented the rioting in London.

As to the wider question of gang participation of the suspected rioters captured so far - those with records(73 per cent) had committed an average of 15 offences, (which makes you think, that if they weren't already in gangs then they really out to be!) and rather makes a mockery of T. May's attempt to play down the role of the gangs last week. Of the 865 jailed thus far, over 350 are in the 15 -20 age bracket which is fairly sobering.

These latest stats surely now leave little doubt as to the almost entirely lumpen nature of the operation.

stats don't count now then. you changing the rules?

 

[cantsin]

How, specifically, does the percentage of 'gang members' amongst the arrested show this? IME being in an experienced 'firm' (whether in a riot, at football or at a demo) means you are far less likely to be still around when the plod happen along and arrest the stragglers, the runners and the casualties.

For example, if you were dependent on arrest figures to indicate Red Action's influence on AFA-led mobilisations back in the day, you could only conclude that RA had a very minimal presence. Eye-witness accounts would tell a vastly different story.

So yes actually, the stats do leave plenty of room etc... and if you had any experience of mass street confrontation (of any kind) you would be only too well aware of this. But feel free to continue this debate with people who have many years experience of it.

you can't equate a tightly knit, politicially motivated 'firm' with an urban youth gang ? Gang's are shown again and again to be loosely knit, estate based, economically driven ( drugs / theft etc ) , ad hoc groups. ( You're plain wrong re: football firms - the main faces have virtually all been nicked repeatedly over the years - very little 'slipping away' to skew the arrest figures unless you're talking about the 70's /early 80's days of mass offs with barmies etc obscuring the picture ) . The idea that these KIDS somehow managed to organise / lead the riots and then slip away en masse is ' just make it up as you go along' stuff , though it does fit neatly into a very debatable political template. Which is what we'd expect from from bent journos/greedy politicans/ corrupt OB all happy to play their respective parts in trying to avoid the real issues behind the events.....

 

[The Black Hand]

Funny how some self-styled rebels are ready to look to the establishment for succour when it suits their preconceptions.

its funny how self styled robots dismiss everything that contradicts their unresearched and preconceived misconceptions.

 

[LLETSA]

its funny how self styled robots dismiss everything that contradicts their unresearched and preconceived misconceptions.

Blah blah.

 

[The Black Hand]

Blah blah.

You repeat yourself so often its hard to see where your last contribution ends.