Dealing With the Renegades - Revisited

[love detective]

but thats what i said ages ago

Well I first described things in those terms from this post on page 7 and have continued doing so throughout the subsequent 20 pages where we've been arguing like fuck

(even your class A dealer is more nuanced, which class a drugs, and how do they operate - also they are far from displaying a no work ethic, a lot of drug dealers work bloody hard)

don't think relying on a measure of efficiency in someone's activity or the hours they put in is what is under discussion here - it's the activity itself, the consequences of that activity and the motivations/inspirations behind doing it - not how well they do it once they've chosen to do so

 

[smokedout]

Well I first described things in those terms from this post on page 7 and have continued doing so throughout the subsequent 20 pages where we've been arguing like fuck

other people's arguments however have not been quite as succint

don't think relying on a measure of efficiency in someone's activity or the hours they put in is what is under discussion here - it's the activity itself, the consequences of that activity and the motivations/inspirations behind doing it - not how well they do it once they've chosen to do so

i agree, alongside your hard working crack dealer you may have someone long term unemployed who happens to be a good friend, neighbour etc and plays an active/positive role in the community

so can we at least agree to drop the 'no work' ethic

 

[love detective]

i think the confusion over the 'no-work' thing lies in people conflating work/labour (i.e. purposeful human activity) with employment (i.e. wage labour) - there's a big difference between these two things

the 'no work' thing is a reference to the former not the later - and effectively points at people prepared to live off the labour of others while making no contribution of their own to the society/community they live in (obviously this only applies to those able to make that contribution before anyone jumps on this)

 

[smokedout]

the 'no work' thing is a reference to the former not the later - and effectively points at people prepared to live off the labour of others while making no contribution of their own to the society/community they live in (obviously this only applies to those able to make that contribution before anyone jumps on this)

but even this (whether they are able to) is open to fierce debate as tomorrow's day of action shows

(knew id manage to work a plug into this thread eventually)

one problem is that many people who probably would be prepared to engage in purposeful human activity do not have the opportunity to do so, the options, especially for younger people are tesco or drug dealing

i understand why an 18 year old doesnt want to work in tesco, and cant condemn them for it - so perhaps this is ground that can be built on - young people need stuff to do that isnt just boxing gyms and pool tables - but any solutions have to come from the bottom up and be something they want and relate to. tricky.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

but even this (whether they are able to) is open to fierce debate as tomorrow's day of action shows

(knew id manage to work a plug into this thread eventually)

one problem is that many people who probably would be prepared to engage in purposeful human activity do not have the opportunity to do so, the options, especially for younger people are tesco or drug dealing

i understand why an 18 year old doesnt want to work in tesco, and cant condemn them for it - so perhaps this is ground that can be built on - young people need stuff to do that isnt just boxing gyms and pool tables - but any solutions have to come from the bottom up and be something they want and relate to. tricky.

So who is to be condemned to do it?

Louis MacNeice

 

[smokedout]

So who is to be condemned to do it?

Louis MacNeice

do you work in tesco?

 

[past caring]

Do you? What relevance is this, anyway?

 

[smokedout]

Do you? What relevance is this, anyway?

if all that is on offer to working class kids from the poorest backgrounds is a shitty low paid job in tesco then you cant be surprised when they choose to do something else

and who can fucking blame them

 

[past caring]

Basically, what you're saying is that working in tescos is demeaning?

 

[smokedout]

Basically, what you're saying is that working in tescos is demeaning?

no im saying that working in tescos/for minimum wage is shit

and ive done enough of it to know

 

[Fozzie Bear]

I worked for Tescos when I was about 18 and can confirm that it was shit and demeaning.

I'd do it again if it was the only option, but I think I would be the world's worst drug dealer.

Sorry to make such a useless contribution to what has been a very thought provoking thread.

 

[past caring]

if all that is on offer to working class kids from the poorest backgrounds is a shitty low paid job in tesco then you cant be surprised when they choose to do something else

and who can fucking blame them

I may not be surprised and I might understand why it happens - but I'll also blame people who act to attack members of my class. I can understand (intellectually, if not emotionally) why people end up as bailiffs and coppers and screws. But as has already been said, act the scab, get treated a scab.

 

[smokedout]

blame away, doesnt get us anywhere though does it

 

[Louis MacNeice]

blame away, doesnt get us anywhere though does it

But identifying where people stand in relation to the working class will; i.e. do they enjoy a parasitic relation, or is their role a disciplinary one.

Louis (one time barman, ground worker, filing clerk, scaffolder's mate, admin officer, warehouseman, hod carrier and shop assistant) MacNeice

 

[Joe Reilly]

is fucking bonkers

Why because they didn't say it? Because they didn't mean it? That they voiced their lament had nothing to do with riots? That their lament for 'Old England' has nothing to do with mass immigration? Which?

 

[smokedout]

Why because they didn't say it? Because they didn't mean it? That they voiced their lament had nothing to do with riots? That their lament for 'Old England' has nothing to do with mass immigration? Which?

because the opinions of a has been actor, a battered old tory historian barely anyone's heard of and a writer no-one's heard of are of about as much consequence as someone ranting in wetherspoons at closing time

 

[DotCommunist]

of course when you hear the IWCA talk of 'dealing with' you have to wonder what lies behind cogent analysis

 

[The39thStep]

Basically, what you're saying is that working in tescos is demeaning?

This is somwething that comes up time and time again as if manual work is beneath the dignity of graduates

 

[love detective]

of course when you hear the IWCA talk of 'dealing with' you have to wonder what lies behind cogent analysis

an attempt to address (politically, theoretically and practically) the kind of issues which the conservative left's refusal to, and inability to even acknowledge, has made them an utter irrelevance to anyone but themselves

 

[DotCommunist]

were graduates mentioned in this context? or was it the low pay in consideration. And not just low pay as in 'I can't afford to go to a resteraunt twice a month' but low pay as in minimum wage.

 

[smokedout]

This is somwething that comes up time and time again as if manual work is beneath the dignity of graduates

you think im a graduate lol

im a manual worker with a couple of gcses, and its shit

 

[The39thStep]

you think im a graduate lol

im a manual worker with a couple of gcses, and its shit

Apols then but there is an attitude on here that manual work seems to be beneath some. My son works in two jobs for 50 hours each week in a hotel and a pub and I am actually proud that he does. His ambition was to work in Tescos.

 

[smokedout]

far more common is graduates who did a fortnight on a building site in the summer holidays once and wheel it out as evidence of working class credentials

 

[past caring]

because the opinions of a has been actor, a battered old tory historian barely anyone's heard of and a writer no-one's heard of are of about as much consequence as someone ranting in wetherspoons at closing time

As individuals, their opinions are, of course, of little significance. But the issues of whether they felt more confident in voicing such opinions because of what they perceived as a shift in public mood due to the riots and of whether what they said resonated with a wider group of people than it would have at other times are hardly insignificant.

My own view - partly arrived at by the some of the posts from regulars on here ( there a few masks that slipped, to put it politely) and partly from walking the dog down Peckham Rye park at the same time the high street was going up (you get talking to all sorts of people walking the dog who you'd otherwise have no dealings with) is that any complacent notions of how Starkey etc. spoke only for themselves would be misguided.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

of course when you hear the IWCA talk of 'dealing with' you have to wonder what lies behind cogent analysis

How the IWCA dealt with the problems encountered in Oxford, are set out in the article and more fully on the website. I haven't seen any comments on this thread proposing an alternative approach or highlighting other approaches by progressives that actually resonante in communities and/or command support of residents. In fact looking at the tons of stuff pumped out by the left about 'building links with communities' practical examples of this happening and it working seem very thin on the ground.

 

[Joe Reilly]

because the opinions of a has been actor, a battered old tory historian barely anyone's heard of and a writer no-one's heard of are of about as much consequence as someone ranting in wetherspoons at closing time

Maybe their opinions as such don't matter ,but that they decided to make their thoughts public at the same time seems to signify a reawakening of a long dormant anxiety in Middle England about immigration per se that the PC culture thought it had eliminated. If so expect it to play itself out politically sooner or later.

 

[The Black Hand]

It's quite bizarre that you of all people could accuse anyone else of being 'old left'. Your politics reek of the stale, old lefties of the past. As to to accusing people of being stuck in the 20th century, even if it was true (which it isn't), Joe would still be two centuries ahead of you.
By the way, if you're so keen on Hegelian Marxism, perhaps you should learn to spell it correctly.

Give over, your deliberately talking shite! You've not tackled the political point as per, that that sort of 'i believe' nonsense is old lefty crap, and you've not got over it. Infact all your groups behaviour over this site shows that you are stale old left. I deliberately have nothing to do with that sort of ideology and behaviour.

Joes nowhere but stuck in the past, like all you IWCA dorx, you're soooo like the ICC or any other ultra left cult its always painful to read the next installment. As for spelin hagalian max ism I really do not give a toss about such ignorant comments.

 

[The Black Hand]

this discussion hasn't budged a bit in nearly 30 pages!

your welded to defining things by types of people (fat people, big issue sellers, children of single mothers) where the crux of the thing (for me anyway) is defining things by behaviour/activity and the impact of that behaviour/activity on working class communities and their ability to politically organise in a progressive manner

sure there's some cross over in that if someone is a full time Class A drug dealer then their label and behaviour/consequence of that behaviour will be one and the same and overlap completely - however when you move away from these obvious cases the important thing to focus on is not what someone is but what they do and what impact that 'doing' has on those around them

But this is also problematic, are people not able to learn from any problematic behaviour? What are we to do in the first instance, and how do you judge the relative scale of whatever suppossed 'offence against the community' has taken place.
Who are the judges and the who is the jury, is there a jury or just the rule of the big mouth? What protections are there for those with learning difficulties, or for that matter those out of their head? This good v. bad stuff is just sooo 20th century.

Are not all these people actually parts of the community, plus shouldn't we be judging the class enemy first before we try to apply these sorts of well meaning standards, not that there is any capability of doing so anywhere anyway so it is all superfluous really.

 

[Captain Hurrah]

dorx

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

But this is also problematic, are people not able to learn from any problematic behaviour? What are we to do in the first instance, and how do you judge the relative scale of whatever suppossed 'offence against the community' has taken place.
Who are the judges and the who is the jury, is there a jury or just the rule of the big mouth? What protections are there for those with learning difficulties, or for that matter those out of their head? This good v. bad stuff is just sooo 20th century.

Are not all these people actually parts of the community, plus shouldn't we be judging the class enemy first before we try to apply these sorts of well meaning standards, not that there is any capability of doing so anywhere anyway so it is all superfluous really.

Y'know, it's just ridiculous. Darcus Howe has some views that the likes of the IWCA would never listen to.

Instead, we are supposed to believe in this artificial division of 'working-class' and 'lumpen'. But it's more than a falsification of theory. It's a means of legitimating divisions based on group superiority (or 'privilege'). No wonder they allude to right-wing academics - they're doing their work for them!