Dealing With the Renegades - Revisited

[Ibn Khaldoun]

No, that's not what i mean. I mean that to survive ever more are forced to take part in the system in on way or another. The system needs their functional inclusion not their expulsion. You are 100% back to front.

Hm, aren't there millions of people who surplus to the system's requirements? And the tendency of unemployment is higher over time.

 

[butchersapron]

There are many more being brought in every year, that's how the system functions. The unemployed are not outside the system, they too are functional for it. Why the hell would 'the system' want people outside it?

 

[smokedout]

see dale farm for details

 

[past caring]

Don't confuse anti social acts with resistance, you are blurring the 2 in a very crass way. Sure, insurrections are messy, plus ca change, that doen't negate the class formation that was going on through resistance either. Many were gathering on the streets, to heckle the polis...

You lot have a one sided argument, 'that everythings always bad, the iwca are it' (its just another variant of stale old leftism, do it our way etc), and you completely underplay and overlook what parts were positive.

Why don't you tell us what these were?

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

There are many more being brought in every year, that's how the system functions. The unemployed are not outside the system, they too are functional for it. Why the hell would 'the system' want people outside it?

Then I guess they're not excluded from the system itself, but divested, disaffected and disempowered within it.

 

[The Black Hand]

Butch, during feudalism were the communities of outlaws who lived in forests eg. during the reign of Henry VIIIth (80K vagrants executed during the reign of Henry VIIIth and that was a massive proportion of the total population - 1569 population approx 3.2 million), living outside of the system?

 

[butchersapron]

Relevant as ever.

 

[The Black Hand]

Then I guess they're not excluded from the system itself, but divested, disaffected and disempowered within it.

Butch is right and you are right, however the tendency is towards exclusion of the 'underclass' who get no or few benefits that makes compliance with the capitalist state less and less possible. The more the poor are evicted, benefit cut, benefit sanctioned etc the less that they will see any compliance with the state worthwhile cos they get nothing in return for their tolerance. Thus the possibility of the return of outlaw communities, people who live outside of the law.

 

[The Black Hand]

Relevant as ever.

Ho ho ho yawn. No answer again Butch? Typical.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Can someone clarify this; is it not ok to talk about 19th century lumpens because history has moved on, but it is ok to evoke 16th century outlaws, because they are historically analogous to 21st century rioters and looters?

Louis MacNeice

 

[smokedout]

Hm, aren't there millions of people who surplus to the system's requirements? And the tendency of unemployment is higher over time.

to be fair i think you could have argued that unemployed people, long term claimants at some point possibly had more autonomy than low waged or even waged workers - as did the institutions which worked with them (job clubs, advice centres etc) - which were often funded top down (by employment services etc) but by and large were benign, often run by local charities, community centres etc

that has changed drastically - unemployment is a price worth paying and vital to the system but it can never be made to look attractive - so the harrassment of the unemployed has developed into a market, just like the legal system, and public services are heading - workfare, disability testing etc are a means of further entrenching the most vulnerable into the system, beyond the benefits trap

there has to be people at the bottom and to everyone but them they can be a valuable commodity

in this context further attacks on claimants, travellers, squatters, the disabled (and bloody students, you dont even get three years off now) can simply be seen as a mopping up. the ferocity of the riots may be a counter-point to that - but ultimately (probably) only further entrench the participants inthe system that is fucking them

having said that lots of people got free tellys and a few coppers got hurt so its not all bad

 

[The Black Hand]

Can someone clarify this; is it not ok to talk about 19th century lumpens because history has moved on, but it is ok to evoke 16th century outlaws, because they are historically analogous to 21st century rioters and looters?

Louis MacNeice

All history is potentially informative and useful for new analysis, but nothing ever happens in exactly the same way. There are always continuities and
ruptures with the past.

 

[The Black Hand]

Why don't you tell us what these were?

You could learn something here i think at the anarchist bootfair;

3pm to 4.30pm
Four days that shook the world
Insurrection or a minor disturbance?
The riots in August started in Tottenham, north London after the murder of Mark Duggan yet another black man killed by the police. Yet again, like with Jean Charles de Menezes, Ian Tomlingson, Harry Stanley, and countless others the police lied to cover up their killing. Mark’s death may have been the straw that broke the camel’s back. But it wasn’t the main cause for the riots and looting throughout London and other parts of the country for nearly a week. A discussion about why the riots took place, the aftermath and where we go from here.
Speakers include Darcus Howe and Tony Wood from the Tottenham Defence Campaign. Organised by: London Anarchist Bookfair Collective

 

[Louis MacNeice]

All history is potentially informative and useful for new analysis, but nothing ever happens in exactly the same way. There are always continuities and
ruptures with the past.

Thanks for the clarification.

Louis MacNeice

 

[The Black Hand]

Thanks for the clarification.

Louis MacNeice

A pleasure.

 

[past caring]

You could learn something here i think at the anarchist bootfair;

3pm to 4.30pm
Four days that shook the world
Insurrection or a minor disturbance?
The riots in August started in Tottenham, north London after the murder of Mark Duggan yet another black man killed by the police. Yet again, like with Jean Charles de Menezes, Ian Tomlingson, Harry Stanley, and countless others the police lied to cover up their killing. Mark’s death may have been the straw that broke the camel’s back. But it wasn’t the main cause for the riots and looting throughout London and other parts of the country for nearly a week. A discussion about why the riots took place, the aftermath and where we go from here.
Speakers include Darcus Howe and Tony Wood from the Tottenham Defence Campaign. Organised by: London Anarchist Bookfair Collective

That's a "no", then.

 

[The Black Hand]

That's a "no", then.

No, its a 'i can't be bothered'. I pointed out where things might be got and that reply suffices for me.

 

[love detective]

No, its a 'i can't be bothered'.

the irony - given that your initial charge was:-

'you completely underplay and overlook what parts were positive'

 

[LLETSA]

Butch, during feudalism were the communities of outlaws who lived in forests eg. during the reign of Henry VIIIth (80K vagrants executed during the reign of Henry VIIIth and that was a massive proportion of the total population - 1569 population approx 3.2 million), living outside of the system?

This is what I think you and your community of one 'outlaw' should go and do.

 

[The Black Hand]

This is what I think you and your community of one 'outlaw' should go and do.

Rubbish letty, do try harder.

 

[The Black Hand]

the irony - given that your initial charge was:-

'you completely underplay and overlook what parts were positive'

Not at all, its a realistic "I can't be bothered to get into another big argument with U lot of negative nay sayers" cos that is what will happen.
Toodle pip old chap, I'm off to sip my champers.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

Butch is right and you are right, however the tendency is towards exclusion of the 'underclass' who get no or few benefits that makes compliance with the capitalist state less and less possible. The more the poor are evicted, benefit cut, benefit sanctioned etc the less that they will see any compliance with the state worthwhile cos they get nothing in return for their tolerance. Thus the possibility of the return of outlaw communities, people who live outside of the law.

Third-Worldization. Shanty towns.

 

[LLETSA]

Third-Worldization. Shanty towns.

A new national anthem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFlqxnSo-gQ

 

[LLETSA]

Never mind.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

to be fair i think you could have argued that unemployed people, long term claimants at some point possibly had more autonomy than low waged or even waged workers - as did the institutions which worked with them (job clubs, advice centres etc) - which were often funded top down (by employment services etc) but by and large were benign, often run by local charities, community centres etc

You could argue that but I'd say those who don't work have less social power, mobility, and purpose.

The system favors a certain amount of unemployment, which isn't only a economic question. For the example, most of the UK's 22000 coal mines were shut down as a political act. Ultimately more people in work is more people with a degree of bargaining power.

 

[butchersapron]

You could argue that but I'd say those who don't work have less social power, mobility, and purpose.

The system favors a certain amount of unemployment, which isn't only a economic question. For the example, most of the UK's 22000 coal mines were shut down as a political act. Ultimately more people in work is more people with a degree of bargaining power.

More people are in work than ever before.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

More people are in work than ever before.

The rate of unemployment isn't exactly the lowest, but I said a certain amount, a labour-reserve.

 

[butchersapron]

The rate of unemployment isn't exactly the lowest, but I said a certain amount, a labour-reserve.

And in what way does that mean that you were right that capitalism expels ever more people from its functioning?

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

And in what way does that mean that you were right that capitalism expels ever more people from its functioning?

I didn't quite say that. But globally unemployment is at records levels. And it's been the trend for at least 15 years. I'm using labour stats at the moment to trace back further.

 

[butchersapron]

I didn't quite say that. But globally unemployment is at records levels. And it's been the trend for at least 15 years. I'm using labour stats at the moment to trace back further.

Unemployment means that you exist in the system not outside. Got any figures then? The definition tell you this.