Dealing With the Renegades - Revisited

[LLETSA]

Thought 'SWP' was for sake of example.

This particular government. Could have been brought down by now, could still be.

What I say applies, however, to any and every formation the left in this country could possibly come up with.

The government could by now have been brought down in a parallel universe perhaps.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

The IWCA has pointed the finger at the the system responsible for the poverty of many of the rioters at the same time as reminding us that the anti-social actions of many rioters effectively puts them on the side of that system.

And they go way too far in doing so. The riots weren't an effective protest, but riots don't tend to be either, which doesn't make them spontaneous outbursts of criminality. That's the problem, "the spirit of revolt without revolution" as Zizek says.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

In abstract everything is possible , in reality how could this particular govt have been brought down, could be brought down?

It's a flimsy coalition that lacks legitimacy and is very unpopular. Not to mention the weak alliances. If only the alternative (New Labour) was much better.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

How would you start building this 'national body to fight neo-liberalism' ? Would we start with the organised working class or the 'imagined lumpenproletariat'?

Well any such building will by necessity include more and more of the proletariat that are excluded from production. That's why developments such as the unemployed workers unions and disabled activism Ukuncut etc. are positive.

And yes I could have imagined these riots two years ago.

Do you see them as completely unconnected to recession and government policies? Are they not part of a pattern of civil unrest?

 

[LLETSA]

And they go way too far in doing so. The riots weren't an effective protest, but riots don't tend to be either, which doesn't make them spontaneous outbursts of criminality. That's the problem, "the spirit of revolt without revolution" as Zizek says.

That's right, keep it abstract. Whatever disspiriting effect the rioters might have on working class communities, the usual impotent fulminations against capitalism will suffice.

 

[LLETSA]

Well any such building will by necessity include more and more of the proletariat that are excluded from production. That's why developments such as the unemployed workers unions and disabled activism Ukuncut etc. are positive.

Do you see them as completely unconnected to recession and government policies? Are they not part of a pattern of civil unrest?

i'll tell you now Ibn: nobody on the left will organise those who rioted for the simple reason that nobody on today's left is remotely capable of doing so.

 

[DotCommunist]

The IWCA has pointed the finger at the the system responsible for the poverty of many of the rioters at the same time as reminding us that the anti-social actions of many rioters effectively puts them on the side of that system. It is an approach that seperates them off from the redundant left.

Grants them a seat on the condemnation commitee.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

I think Ibn may be onto something here. The left should be looking to all those members of the working class who have been forced/chosen to stand outside and against that class, as the shock troops of a new anti-capitalism: police and gangs against neo-liberalism.

Louis Macneice

 

[love detective]

Do you see them as completely unconnected to recession and government policies? Are they not part of a pattern of civil unrest?

Anytime I have mentioned the weak state of the anti-cuts movement in the UK on here (this thread for example) - a common retort seems to be that 'the cuts haven't started to bite yet and once they do things will pick up in terms of resistance/militancy' - yet when it comes to 'understanding' the riots the common retort seems to be that they are (in part) a product of the cuts (i.e. you couldn't have imagined them two years ago)

None of these explanations are convincing in isolation - even less so when the contradictions of their combination are considered

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Grants them a seat on the condemnation commitee.

That's good - because the head in the sand committee seems to be full up.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

The global system excludes an ever large number of people from any role in it. That is a secular trend as well. When we have shanty towns here no-one will scoff at what I'm saying - as some apparently are on this thread.

 

[LLETSA]

The global system excludes an ever large number of people from any role in it. That is a secular trend as well. When we have shanty towns here no-one will scoff at what I'm saying - as some apparently are on this thread.

That comment has no real connection to what's gone before.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

That's good - because the head in the sand committee seems to be full up.

They're both subcommittees of the "rioters were crims" group.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

That comment has no real connection to what's gone before.

Post #724 for example.

 

[butchersapron]

The global system excludes an ever large number of people from any role in it. That is a secular trend as well. When we have shanty towns here no-one will scoff at what I'm saying - as some apparently are on this thread.

No it doesn't. It includes ever more people in its workings, ensures that they can only survive through it. Congrats, you've missed the last 40 years.

 

[Joe Reilly]

The lumpens were proletarized in the late nineteenth 20th century.

Ok, and now we're heading in the opposite direction. Why is that so hard to grasp?

 

[smokedout]

Anytime I have mentioned the weak state of the anti-cuts movement in the UK on here (this thread for example) - a common retort seems to be that 'the cuts haven't started to bite yet and once they do things will pick up in terms of resistance/militancy' - yet when it comes to 'understanding' the riots the common retort seems to be that they are (in part) a product of the cuts (i.e. you couldn't have imagined them two years ago)

other things aside, i dont think you can divorce the riots completely from what has been going on elsewhere even if you only acknowledge the influence was tactical rather than political in nature

there were plenty of kids from 'the slums of london' came out to fight the police at the student demos, i suspect some of them got a taste for it, a confidence they hadnt felt before and realised they could do it better in their own manors and get something out of it

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

No it doesn't. It includes ever more people in its workings, ensures that they can only survive through it. Congrats, you've missed the last 40 years.

Formal inclusion yeah. Few people aren't on some kind of database.

 

[butchersapron]

Formal inclusion yeah. Few people aren't on some kind of database.

No, that's not what i mean. I mean that to survive ever more are forced to take part in the system in on way or another. The system needs their functional inclusion not their expulsion. You are 100% back to front.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

Ok, and now we're heading in the opposite direction. Why is that so hard to grasp?

Probably; we're not there yet.

 

[The Black Hand]

You're the one who introduced solutions.

No, that was the 'realist iwca' I said they weren't solutions at all.

 

[The Black Hand]

The bit your missing is that the lumpen are determined by economic conditions as with all other classes.

No Joe, 'determined' Marxist theory is bastardised Marxism, and is not Marxism at all really. All these essentialisms and determinisms belong to the past, and we do not live there anymore where such certaintys created so many problems - 'believing' is part of the problem rather than the solution.

 

[The Black Hand]

I could give you similar stories from my own upbringing. The point is that working class communities were, thirty-plus years ago, more intact than they are now, with a sense of solidarity, despite the presence of thsoe who had no regard for it, resting on industries and an organised working class now absent.

Hurrah Letty - you've said something obvious and said it well. now can you progress some further?

 

[LLETSA]

Hurrah Letty - you've said something obvious and said it well. now can you progress some further?

Book stall somewhere? University event?

 

[The Black Hand]

The IWCA has pointed the finger at the the system responsible for the poverty of many of the rioters at the same time as reminding us that the anti-social actions of many rioters effectively puts them on the side of that system. It is an approach that seperates them off from the redundant left.

No it doesn't letty - you are the redundant left cos you're only gabbling off on bb and have no organisation in the working classes and their areas. Fact You've (iwca) been banging this drum for 15 yrs plus and nobodies listening, still.

 

[The Black Hand]

i'll tell you now Ibn: nobody on the left will organise those who rioted for the simple reason that nobody on today's left is remotely capable of doing so.

Which doesn't mean that the attempts should not be made.

 

[LLETSA]

Which doesn't mean that the attempts should not be made.

Off you fuck and do it then.

 

[The Black Hand]

Book stall somewhere? University event?

Event next to the Toon football ground

 

[The Black Hand]

Off you fuck and do it then.

There are many like me who already do - you need to watch the latest Reel news activist video on the Tottenham insurrection.
Plus we should be talking more about the execution of Duggan, why did op Trident (designed to decrease black on black crime) execute Duggan in a part of Tottenham that wasn't wired with CCTV? That's the bigger issue for me, you lot let the polis off the hook time and time again.

 

[The Black Hand]

That's right, keep it abstract. Whatever disspiriting effect the rioters might have on working class communities, the usual impotent fulminations against capitalism will suffice.

Don't confuse anti social acts with resistance, you are blurring the 2 in a very crass way. Sure, insurrections are messy, plus ca change, that doen't negate the class formation that was going on through resistance either. Many were gathering on the streets, to heckle the polis...

You lot have a one sided argument, 'that everythings always bad, the iwca are it' (its just another variant of stale old leftism, do it our way etc), and you completely underplay and overlook what parts were positive.