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Dealing With the Renegades - Revisited

Which is handy for your argument it's what enables you to lump everything together rather discriminating. And your language illustrates my earlier point (described by Past Caring as "bizarre") that you are deliberately inviting a comparison between the organised nature of lumpens ("united front") with the absence of credible organisation on the left. To achieve this emphasis you have to stress this element of the riots (stretched beyond any reasonable degree) in order to make it).

The 'argument' is that the street gangs initiated the riots for (largely business) reasons of their own. They formed an unprecedented united front to do so. This alliance gave them the necessary numbers and the mobility to move from borough to borough at will. In short the riots were organised, but some inevitably took on a life of their own. A distinction must also be made between the rioters and the routine looters who the former had summoned to provide additional cover, to provide a diversion and tie up police long after the real perpetrators had moved on to a fresh target. That I think is a fair summary of the IWCA position as outlined.

You continue to insist however that this all about having a sly dig at the Left. But the Left don't come into it. At all.
 
I can see what you are claiming, but I don't see where there's any evidence for it. Routine looters were "summoned" by a united front of gang members? Can't you see how that looks far fetched? I can see that gangs and gang members may well have been one element in the riots. But the idea that they were the master puppeteers is another thing altogether.
 
I can see what you are claiming, but I don't see where there's any evidence for it. Routine looters were "summoned" by a united front of gang members? Can't you see how that looks far fetched?

If people were not alerted to the riots by social media how did they know when and where to go? And if they were alerted by social media who do you think was alerting them? Meet at such and such 'come and get free stuff' - again, and again, again. Same formula.
 
Where did I say there was no social media involvement? But again, there were lots of social media, tweet outs and all the rest only a fraction of which actually turned into riots - how does it happen, it's not transparent - there is a degree of snowballing - people (anyone can send a tweet) throw out suggestions and some suggestions "stick" and others don't. Why do some pictures of cats doing funny shit become Youtube hits and not others? Maybe the gang leaders are promoting them for "business" purposes (you see why this kind of logic is suspect...)

The idea that it was all consciously manipulated and planned just seems highly implausible.
 
The lumpen are those who have been driven into long term unemployment, initially through no fault of their own, who then adjust to it financially and in other ways. Thereafter they make no contribution and have no intention of making any. It is a parasitic existence. They live off society. They do so brazenly. Which is historically one of the defining charachteristics of that class.

oh i see, you mean the poor dont you
 
oh i see, you mean the poor dont you

No. The poor tend to be those stuck in minimum wage jobs - cleaners, guards, hotel jobs, pub work etc and those layed off. Whilst some of the lumpen are also skint - many have the most money in their immediate area through dealing etc and everyone knows it and how they got it ime.
 
And the poor are, we should not forget, the first and biggest victims of the criminal element among the lumpen.
 
I can see what you are claiming, but I don't see where there's any evidence for it. Routine looters were "summoned" by a united front of gang members? Can't you see how that looks far fetched?

Perhaps Joe Reilly is simply drawing on his own extensive experience of football, social and political confrontation and how easy it is for a small group to direct a larger mob without individuals in the larger group even being aware what is happening.

At football (and demo's) back in the day, the plod consistently arrested easy pickings such as casualties, runners & spectators in the aftermath of a fight - the instigators/perpetrators simply walked away or were long gone. From media reports this pattern seems to have played out in the recent events where casual/passerby/opportunist looters seem to have borne the brunt of the arrests.

I don't even live in Britain, but even at this remove this pattern seems clear.
 
well, put it that way and sounds more feasible. But still - would gangs really expose their operations by openly calling people using social media? [I guess thats why attention went on Blackberry messenger - do gangs use blackberries I don't know]
 
Perhaps Joe Reilly is simply drawing on his own extensive experience of football, social and political confrontation and how easy it is for a small group to direct a larger mob without individuals in the larger group even being aware what is happening.

At football (and demo's) back in the day, the plod consistently arrested easy pickings such as casualties, runners & spectators in the aftermath of a fight - the instigators/perpetrators simply walked away or were long gone. From media reports this pattern seems to have played out in the recent events where casual/passerby/opportunist looters seem to have borne the brunt of the arrests.

I don't even live in Britain, but even at this remove this pattern seems clear.

The stranger returns!
 
The lumpen are those who have been driven into long term unemployment, initially through no fault of their own, who then adjust to it financially and in other ways. Thereafter they make no contribution and have no intention of making any. It is a parasitic existence. They live off society. They do so brazenly. Which is historically one of the defining charachteristics of that class.
parasites now, this is getting more and more Daily Express by the moment.

Except it's not of course, not really because the prescriptions for what to do about it differ. At least I would hope so. For the Daily Express (not that I read it, you understand) cutting off benefits, evicting social tenants and strong, probably zero tolerance, policing are the answer. That's clear, simple and completely barking.

However I'm still not really sure just what the IWCA prescription amounts to. The original article made reference to driving rather vague wedges and the tantalising, but unexplained "political authority to exclude", which was subsequently fleshed out a bit with the story of the drug gang run off Blackbird Leys estate a few years back.

What I don't get is how that's supposed to translate to the vast majority of the working class lives I see, people who don't live on giant, out-of-town, estates, but in mixed up communities of prosperous and skint, living on benefits or working in myriad ways for who knows who, an almost random mix of social or private tenants and owner occupiers, living in the patchwork that is London in 2011.

Is Neighbourhood Watch with political teeth the model, with street committees and net curtain twitching? Probably not, so what is?

How does 'the working class' or 'the community', whatever those terms might mean, express themselves? And, given that what you call 'lumpen' are the sons and daughters of my neighbours, why do you think that exclusion and driving wedges is what would be wanted even if such expression were possible?
 
I don't much care what the Guardian (or the vocal elements of their readership) think. I'm interested in what the IWCA (and others here) have to say about their own proposals.
 
I don't much care what the Guardian (or the vocal elements of their readership) think. I'm interested in what the IWCA (and others here) have to say about their own proposals.

You're not interested in the IWCA full stop Newbie.
 
what? of course I am. It's a political group with something thought-out to say. Why wouldn't I be interested?
 
tbh, over the years some of the most interesting debates hereabouts have been around IWCA ideas and initiatives, because they're well thought-through and well argued and are unafraid to challenge multiple othodoxies all at once. I think that's very valuable, I wish there was more of it about.

Where I've disagreed with their perspective I've said so. and?

But you might care to note that on this, very interesting, thread I haven't disagreed with anything much, I'm just trying to find out how this analysis of where we are translates into the practical.
 
parasites now, this is getting more and more Daily Express by the moment.

Except it's not of course, not really because the prescriptions for what to do about it differ. At least I would hope so. For the Daily Express (not that I read it, you understand) cutting off benefits, evicting social tenants and strong, probably zero tolerance, policing are the answer. That's clear, simple and completely barking.

However I'm still not really sure just what the IWCA prescription amounts to. The original article made reference to driving rather vague wedges and the tantalising, but unexplained "political authority to exclude", which was subsequently fleshed out a bit with the story of the drug gang run off Blackbird Leys estate a few years back.
?

Newbie, I think you might have confused the IWCA with the SWP? My understanding is that there is no programme, no set of demands and no pre-conceived 'prescription' that is to be pushed onto a grateful working class.

Instead, the approach is based on listening to the concerns of local people in an area (and as you correctly say what that might be in your part of London, could be different to say, Newtown in Birmingham.) and then agreeing with those resisdents how best they put that into practise.
 
fwiw I spend about 5 seconds per year wondering what the SWP hope their analysis will lead to and make no apology for thinking the IWCA is worth a lot more than that.

No prescription follows such a clear and coherent diagnosis of a significant 'enemy'? What can be done about this enemy, and how? It's an obvious question, isn't it, whether asked here or by local people? Those who have discussed the issues in depth, contributed to the essays and defended them here in great detail must have some ideas, surely? That's all I'm asking.

What is the point of the essays if local people are offered no clues about how to develop from the vividly described current problems? There must be some sort of vision, no?
 
I was looking through some previous articles from Red Action to look at the development of the theme being propagated here by Joe and others. Where there has been frustration expressed by IWCA supporters here at the reluctance for people to accept the political arguments made, it may have much to do with the expectation that some people have that should they do so, the next demand will be "well why won't you join in and assist by doing "this" against the gangs? "
Outlaws and Renegades.
"Above all, for any progressive movement to continue its advance within a working class neighbourhood it will prove necessary ‘to get rid of that gang’. Get rid not merely as a by-product, but as an end in itself. Given the stakes, not taking sides is not an option."
 
Where there has been frustration expressed by IWCA supporters here at the reluctance for people to accept the political arguments made,

The phenomenon they point to is real enough - but possibly not as widespread as they claim and is experienced at different levels of intensity. I mean "street gangs" covers a wide spectrum - from people involved with crack dealing and knife attacks etc at one end to a few bored youngsters getting involved in low-grade anti-social behaviour at the other.

I mean 39th Step said he's been dealing with gangs in Harlesden and Moss Side - and these are communities which have at one time or other had *big* issues with this stuff (and assume to some extent still do) - but equally, and mostly outside of the big cities, you get local papers talking about "youth gangs" when they mean a few kids.

And I know Joe's argument is that geographical patches all dissolved and the gangs got together across London. But given that I know there are gangs operating quite near me [in Brent] - but that there was little evidence of rioting [OK Kilburn but nothing more central] I just wonder - at an empirical level - whether the pudding isn't being a bit over-egged on the riots.

Their general point stands though.
 
And I know Joe's argument is that geographical patches all dissolved and the gangs got together across London. But given that I know there are gangs operating quite near me [in Brent] - but that there was little evidence of rioting [OK Kilburn but nothing more central] I just wonder - at an empirical level - whether the pudding isn't being a bit over-egged on the riots.

Their general point stands though.

Just to clarify, the 'dissolving of patches' was likely to have been restricted, initially at least, to the gangs in the 5 boroughs under pressure from police operations. They would have been the most motivated. Yet there was still rioting and looting in 22 boroughs out of (is it?) 33.

Additionally of those arrested 3 out of 4 cent have previous, with 83 per cent being 'known' to plod.

Just how much more 'empirical' evidence do you need?
 
that 83% stat is at variance from the stat in your original piece. Besides which - 3 out 4 *arrested* not 3 out 4 *involved* - and even then "known to plod" might be just a caution for low-grade ASB.
And by your own reckoning 17 out of 22 boroughs which saw disturbances weren't those with gangs under immediate police pressure.

As I say - I don't doubt your basic point. But you are stretching it (and then some?)
 
Additionally of those arrested 3 out of 4 cent have previous, with 83 per cent being 'known' to plod.

Just how much more 'empirical' evidence do you need?

The problem with this stat is that rioters who weren't already known to the police are far less likely to get arrested.. some who are not known will have got picked up from pictures in the papers etc having handed themselves in or been identified, but many won't. Anyone known to the police and caught on cctv will have got arrested.. That stat is biased, no idea how biased though.

One interesting thing that surprised me in Birmingham is that no-one or hardly anyone (my memory says no-one, but I'm reluctant about such a strong statement) picked up for city centre stuff is known to be in a gang, although the gun incident and bits around handsworth/lozells are. The chief of West Mids police said this on the riots debate that I went to see which was recordedn for and part broadcast on the today programme this week
Obviously that has no bearing on the London stuff, and I don't know if by gangs the WMP guy was really just thinking of the Johnson Crew & Burger Bar Boy type gangs (ie: proper, large scale criminal enterprises) or would also include some of the smaller more transitory groups that exist around Birmingham
 
Just to clarify, the 'dissolving of patches' was likely to have been restricted, initially at least, to the gangs in the 5 boroughs under pressure from police operations. They would have been the most motivated. Yet there was still rioting and looting in 22 boroughs out of (is it?) 33.

Additionally of those arrested 3 out of 4 cent have previous, with 83 per cent being 'known' to plod.

Just how much more 'empirical' evidence do you need?
32 boroughs 1 city of london
 
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