articul8
Dishonest sociopath
well I'm on the editorial board of Red Pepper, and its governing Board too. That's about it - so no "political" officeholder. Why do you ask?
Dealing With the Renegades - Revisited
- Thread starter love detective
- Start date
do the nouveau lumpen have less money than some sections of the working class, does the analogy with coppers and bailiffs hold up given this, does this push them into criminality?
i agree a formal definition of criminality gets us nowhere, but thats where many people, especially young people draw the line - we need to look beyond that and actually set out what is/isnt acceptable criminality, what impacts the working class and what doesnt (does looting from argos, what about small shops) that hasnt been done in the iwca piece or here so far beyond rape and murder
no that is a million miles away from the point ive been making
love detective
there's no love too small
Not necessarily no - I don't understand your attempt to define this on pure economic terms - as you say below it's about what kind of behaviours & activities impact working class communities adversely and what doesn't
what you've said above is exactly what I said to you in the post that your post above replied to - so how can you say it hasn't been touched on here - all you've done is repeat back to me what I said to you in the previous post!
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
did i give the wrong answer?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
No you didn't. You made it worse, you're an unelected voice of liberal intern london bubble now.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Were any of them an unelected voice of the liberal intern london bubble ?
Politics, it means other people.
Politics, it means other people.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
The point I'm making is that the left has - with depressing predictability - firmly placed itself on the wrong side of the debate and in doing so has missed the significant points.
Most people, in fact, do not support the actions of the rioters/looters - they despise them.
Most people don't share their warped values, sense of entitlement or unthinking involvement in the mindless trashing of working class areas.
Your point seems to be that what has happened is actually just a more concentrated form of normal behaviour for our class, most of whom go on the rob or deal from time to time. In fact whilst there is a growing underclass for whom such activity is routine there is a far greater number - the class 'proper' - who look on in horror and despair.
Anyone who actually lives in these areas knows that the continued unfettered antics of this grouping both demoralises our class and hampers the development of pro working class politics.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
rioter = criminal?
How is this any different from David Cameron's position?
How is this any different from David Cameron's position?
love detective
there's no love too small
did you read what he posted?
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
So having transversed this space how would you overcome this problem of atomisation that lacls any real sense of collective empowerment and leads to asocial behaviour of looting of charity shops , small corner shop businesses ,stealing MacMillan charity collections, smashing up third sector social enterprisee , the housing office, local pubs , car jacking, pulling a motor cyclist off his bike then driving it off, mugging students etc?
Support the labour party like the rope supports a hanged man?
Build the party? Patiently explain ?
Recruit them to anti cuts campaigns?
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
ask local residents in Manchester or Salford where the Tories don't get a look in, they will use the same language.
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
Who cares what David Cameron thinks? Does everybody have to take the opposite poll of opinion to the Tories to play safe? That to me is ultra leftism. An infantile knee jerk reaction with a heavy dose of denial added to the equation.
Most working class people, who I know, both black and white, left wing and apolitical, are disgusted with the rioters and consider them to be criminals and that is a conclusion they have reached by being near the events and not thru media manipulation. They rightly see them as selfish, to put it mildly. The people who participated cannot be equated with say, the poll Tax rioters, who had a cause and on being arrested were, in effect, political prisoners with the sympathy of millions.
For most people the riots played out with an uncanny resemblance to the film 28 days later, as the mobs got nearer and nearer to peoples homes in a whirlwind of nightmarish Darwinism, preying on the weak, until they were virtually coming thru your window.
Somebody mentioned Single parent mums stealing trainers.
Watch this video. IGNORE the title and go straight to minute 4.59. Turn off the sound. Turn off the Annotations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFMfG-Fyrxk
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
Any research that tries to map out the profile of the looters should take into account the time of arrest. I have the impression that most people who were caught red handed were the soppy copycat opportunists going in for sticky seconds later on and that the hardcore were on their toes sharpish.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I think Cameron is wrong. I think the people going through the courts right now show that he is wrong. And you will find a diversity of opinions in the areas where the riots happened. So what?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
You're a broken record on this. Yes, I did read what he posted. And it seemed pretty clear to me. The riots were caused by 'sheer criminality'. No nuance. No ambiguity.
love detective
there's no love too small
the young scamps in that video were clearly just taking the opportunity, during the suspension of the law (that protects existing class relations and its phantasmagoria of commodity images), to traverse the space between the commodity-sphere and the reality of material impoverishment - these acts (which unveil the psychology of commodification and the suspension of reification in rioting) should be celebrated for what they clearly are - a new beginning in class politics
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Look I'm getting the feeling that this is pointless but;
1. You are wrong - come to West Brom, Wolverhampton or Birmingham. Outside of lefty circles you'll need to travel a long way to find anyone else who wants to 'understand' or 'not condone but empathise' or who thinks the looting was as a direct result of the EMA/job cuts/poverty. There is, in fact, a near uniformity of opinion - and guess what, your on the wrong side of it.
2. Ask yourself this were the local communities in London and Birmingham who came out on the streets to protect their homes and areas wrong to do so? Why do you think they did it?
3. Even if you were right - so what? - this OP states that the huge growth of the underclass is a huge impediment to our class and to the interests of our class an therefore is automatically a bad thing that needs to be tackled head on.
love detective
there's no love too small
you may have read the words but clearly what they mean are lost on you
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
Yeah, what do people think about them in general?
The attitude that they are ok as long as they aren't made up of white working class makes me wanna puke, and is extremely damaging for the image of the left.
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
Don't disagree. However the black on black, teen on teen murder rate in London is exceptional. The lumpen, for those unduly sensitive on such matters, is both multiracial and multiculural.
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
Just ask yourself one question and you have your answer: How much looting was involved in the Poll Tax 'riot'? I personally saw one window kicked in in Shaftsbury Avenue and some one ran off with a single boot! And that was it. Compare that with Croydon. In other words, how political a riot is, and the motivations of those involved comes down what risks are taken for personal gain. Setting fire to the SA embassy for example. Huge risk zero return.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
there was a considerable amount of looting involved in the poll tax riot. i walked up tottenham court road and saw a load of looted electronics shops. i saw at least two looted off licences. i saw looted music shops. i saw a jewellers getting looted. and even if you didn't actually see it, there were the reports of looting. so if your argument is there was fuck all looting in the poll tax riot, you either chose to ignore it, didn't see it or have preferred to rewrite history.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
Jesus I can write like a pompous prick at times
I don't really talk like thisbut this wasn't what i said - i wasn't saying the riots should be celebrated just understood in their complexity. This means avoiding gushing excitement AND the Cassandra-like tendency to read in every event the proof of our own powerlessness.
TopCat
Putin fanboy
There was loads of looting in the poll tax riot.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
Million dollar question. I don't have easy answers - there aren't any. The conditions that produce this kind of behaviour of structural and complex
. Doesn't mean they can be excused or easily overcome by just pushing the same old solutions harder.love detective
there's no love too small
i would say my first post on this thread about the riots avoided both of those things that you claim that we're doing
(In that it acknowledged the energising & liberating potential of collective (if atomised) power to so easily & effectively sideline day to day state power. While at the same time refusing to celebrate unconditionally the ends to which that power was actually put to use and lamenting the current impossibility of that power to be channeled towards progressive ends. And highlighting that difficulty/current inability and the obstacles in the way of doing such a thing brings us back full square to the issue raised in the OP itself)
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