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Coronavirus in the UK - news, lockdown and discussion

20Bees said:
My grandson’s nursery will open on 1 June. It’s too soon - little ones may be less likely to get COVID-19 but may spread it. All those 3 year olds will be in close physical contact with parents, some of whom may be returning to work and commuting on public transport, and some of those commuters may not get their hands washed and their work clothes out of the way before the 3 year old throws himself into their arms.
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I know someone that runs a nursery, she's remained open for key worker's & vulnerable kiddies, and will fully re-open from the 1st June, if that remains the date.

Clearly, there's no chance of social distancing, and the staff can't wear PPE, as that would freak the kiddies out, but they are checking the temperature of staff & kiddies when they arrive every day, and parents are banned from going in, the 'hand over' is carried out in the front garden.

But, then we are lucky, as Worthing is a low risk area.
 
Gramsci said:
Been talking to a couple of people who work in schools ( my partner is one) They don't want to go back in June. Can't see how teaching is possible in safe way yet. Also think that means travelling on public transport to get to work. Which in London means being on bus or tube.

Partner reckons some parents are going to refuse to send children to school now.

What do posters think?
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We won't be sending ours back in June but that's because we know a five year old can't social distance and neither of us are working now anyway. Once we need to work again we won't have much choice about using childcare. A lot of people working from home with kids are desparate for a bit of school.
 
editor said:
This lot seem to be going all libertarian

architectsforsocialhousing.co.uk

The State of Emergency as Paradigm of Government: Coronavirus Legislation, Implementation and Enforcement

‘It is clear that, beyond the emergency situation linked to a certain virus which may in the future leave room for another, at issue is the design of a paradigm of government whose effectiveness wi…
architectsforsocialhousing.co.uk architectsforsocialhousing.co.uk
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You know as soon as anyone uses the word 'Paradigm' that everything after it is going to be utter bollocks.
 
must learn how to delete drafts


teuchter said:
"architects for social housing" is really just two people - Simon Elmer and Geraldine Dening.
I used to follow them/him via a (closed) facebook group. Over time it moved from mainly just stuff (I thought largely pretty good) about social housing to other things, including constant attack on the labour party.
Simon Elmer writes nearly all the political essays - Geraldine Dening seems mainly to stick to the directly housing-related stuff.
A year or so back Simon Elmer started threatening to delete everyone from the group if they didn't state they agreed with certain things and commit to certain actions, and seemed paranoid that it was being infiltrated by labour party stooges. There seemed to be some crossover with Brexit party types in the comments being posted.
Eventually, he did delete everyone. Since then, I've not followed them.
It's a shame because I thought they did some really good, detailed stuff on social housing. Then it went a bit weird, and people like me no longer are in touch with what they do, and now start to doubt some of the housing work that seemed pretty grounded and pragmatic.
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I was going to say I had thought they were pretty sensible. I'd seen a couple of things in the past and thought quite good on social issues so was very confused to see this.
 
quimcunx said:
must learn how to delete drafts




I was going to say I had thought they were pretty sensible. I'd seen a couple of things in the past and thought quite good on social issues so was very confused to see this.
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There was some Assange stuff that may raise eyebrows some here, too.

architectsforsocialhousing.co.uk

The Persecution, Incarceration, Torture and Extra-Territorial Extradition of Julian Assange: Template for a letter to your Member of Parliament

This is a template for an e-mail in response to the United Nations report published last month on the collective persecution of Julian Assange, to be sent to the Members of Parliament and Peers who…
architectsforsocialhousing.co.uk architectsforsocialhousing.co.uk
 
I always seem to get dragged back to that crucial period in March:

www.bbc.co.uk

Coronavirus: PM quizzed over 'unexplained' care home deaths

Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer says 10,000 extra deaths in April must be accounted for, as he questions the PM.
www.bbc.co.uk

Nick Triggle analysis:

The advice that was withdrawn in mid-March was based on the assumption at the time that the virus was not spreading widely in the community.

In hindsight, that assumption was wrong and the fear that the virus had taken hold was part of the reason the government ordered the lockdown. At that point the advice was withdrawn.
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Elsewhere in that article, not part of the Nick Triggle analysis:

The guidance at the centre of the row was issued on 25 February and withdrawn on 13 March, a time when the virus was not thought to be spreading in the community.
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13th March eh. That was a key day in the shitstorm about how little the government was doing, and the herd immunity justification that the likes of Vallance came out with. They had decided to move to the next phase of their original plan (because the virus was spreading in the community), and their plan was a poor fit for what was needed and expected, so they were feeling the heat all through that week. By Friday 13th March things were looking desperate for their plan and I expect doubts were setting in even in their own minds. It was still well before the lockdown, still several days away from the u-turn that eventually resulted in lockdown. I wonder what Nick Triggle was saying on March 13th. Oh dear, that was the date of this notorious analysis from him:

'Keep calm and carry on'

The worst health crisis in a generation. Lives will be lost. All this is true. But what got missed in the government's coronavirus message - understandably, given the scale of the challenge - is that we should also get on with our lives.

We should keep calm and carry on (while following the advice, of course). At the moment, there are two basic things to do - wash our hands regularly and isolate if we develop symptoms.
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We should still go out, play sport, attend events and keep children in school. Why? Short of never leaving your home and the rest of the household following suit, it's impossible to eliminate the risk of getting the virus. It's circulating.

Even if you skip your trip to a concert or the theatre, you may well catch it on your way to work or when you do the weekly shop.
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This virus is with us now. And it will be for the foreseeable future. Only when we have a vaccine or if herd immunity develops - if enough of the population is exposed to it - will we have protection.

There will no doubt be a time when drastic measures are needed - to flatten the peak, protect the most vulnerable at the time of highest risk and stop the NHS getting overwhelmed - but it's not now. That's the clear message.
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That analysis did not last long in the BBC article, it was replaced by analysis from Pallab Ghosh sometime later on the afternoon of the 13th. Lets have a look at what that said.

Many countries are taking tough measures such as school closures, cancelling mass gatherings and severe travel restrictions. But the UK has adopted relatively modest controls.

The difference can be explained partly by the fact some of countries are further into their epidemics.

Computer simulations indicate the UK is in the early stages. The government's top scientists believe it is too soon to impose severe restrictions.
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Such limitations might last several months and risk "self-isolation fatigue", with people leaving their homes when the epidemic reaches its height.

Many elderly people, who are particularly at risk of developing severe symptoms, are already isolated. Cutting them off from their communities now, when the risks are still relatively low, would create unnecessary difficulties for them.

School closures have also yet to be announced. Such measures are effective for controlling serious flu epidemics, but Covid-19 seems to affect children less. In addition, school closures would take many much needed NHS staff away from their jobs while they look after their children.
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Oh what a mess that all was, much was said at the time that those involved probably have much cause to regret now. I'll keep requoting this sort of thing from time to time whenever I see recollections of recent history in the press that make my eyebrows wiggle.

Note the contradictory stuff I put in bold from the Ghosh analysis. Already isolated but not yet cut off from their communities, what nonsense.

I had to use archive.org to get the original Triggle stuff from an earlier version of the March 13th article, although I had also quoted it on this forum at the time. But here is the url for the current form of the March 13th story anyway UK virus measures will have the 'biggest impact'
 
Last edited:
I took a bus to work and back on Monday in London. There were 10 passengers downstairs so we all had a double seat but still no way you were 2m away from the person in front of you.
I did not have a mask or gloves. At first you couldn't buy them, then the advice on if they worked was so contradictory and after that i had been so exposed I didn't bother.
At school the number of key worker/vulnerable children has doubled this week. I expect another small increase but it's a secondary so not been told to open. I expect primaries will see a 50/50 split with those who want/need their children to attend and those who don't.
There is zero social distancing at my school or either of the key worker schools my sons go to, it's not possible.
 
quimcunx said:
must learn how to delete drafts




I was going to say I had thought they were pretty sensible. I'd seen a couple of things in the past and thought quite good on social issues so was very confused to see this.
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Me too. I've always respected and valued their work in the past but they seem to be on their way to going the full Festival Eye.
 
nagapie said:
after that i had been so exposed I didn't bother.
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That's not how it works - reducing potential exposure is still worthwhile, even if you know you're exposed in other ways.

nagapie said:
There is zero social distancing at my school or either of the key worker schools my sons go to, it's not possible.
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Why not? There are plenty of steps that schools can and should be taking, even if they can't manage complete social distancing. Just throwing up your hands and saying "this is impossible, fuck it why bother" is not an acceptable option.
 
I think we need to be very careful not to slip into character assassinations of those that are working and having to return to work by using public transport. It's already started online.

Where are everyone buying their masks too by the way? I'll get one now I assumed they were all out of stock etc and until now the bus has been okay. I have a normal snood face covering, but it's obviously pretty pointless. This is fucking shit what a time to injure my shoulder and is I can't cycle.
 
Buddy Bradley said:
That's not how it works - reducing potential exposure is still worthwhile, even if you know you're exposed in other ways.


Why not? There are plenty of steps that schools can and should be taking, even if they can't manage complete social distancing. Just throwing up your hands and saying "this is impossible, fuck it why bother" is not an acceptable option.
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I don't run any of the schools. But i know my 6 year old gives a big hug to all his favourite teachers every day. I also know that telling teenagers to stay 2m apart from each other is never going to happen.
Maybe i could get gloves and a mask. I only have to be on site once every two weeks so i just try to keep my distance and wash well after. This may be more difficult with more people returning to work.
 
nagapie said:
I don't run any of the schools. But i know my 6 year old gives a big hug to all his favourite teachers every day. I also know that telling teenagers to stay 2m apart from each other is never going to happen.
Maybe i could get gloves and a mask. I only have to be on site once every two weeks so i just try to keep my distance and wash well after. This may be more difficult with more people returning to work.
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Adults in supermarkets don't seem capable of working out how to stay away from others. What chance do we have of getting kids to do it.
 
watching high of the latest briefing



has the Government suddenly so given up about the idea of getting 100000 test a day..


they now want to quote the total number of people tested


:D

Moving to level 3 before the end of the week

:facepalm:
 
BristolEcho said:
Are they actually any good? Most cheap things you can get on Amazon are of various quality.
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All the decent ones I could find were hideously expensive or could deliver in July. Read the reviews carefully if you do buy some, I’ve seen some shockers.
Really wish I could get some more FFP3 from my friend but they can’t spare them understandably.
I’d like a couple of washable ones with filters.
 
Buddy Bradley said:
That's not how it works - reducing potential exposure is still worthwhile, even if you know you're exposed in other ways.


Why not? There are plenty of steps that schools can and should be taking, even if they can't manage complete social distancing. Just throwing up your hands and saying "this is impossible, fuck it why bother" is not an acceptable option.
Click to expand...

Obviously you've never had to control a class for 6 hours.

Kids...teens...will not manage 6 ft distance at all times..
What's more schools are not designed for that.
The only way they will open is part time for pupils.
4 kids in a class. The rest online at home. Same lessons done on devices. No paper.
And rotate every 2 days so different kids get a chance to come to school for practical subjects.

But it will still be very nearly impossible to follow guidelines on social distancing. Kids on school buses? One per 2 rows? And they will break rules.
Teachers having to stay feet from pupils? How do you help a 5yr old with their shoes?
Let alone the handwashing every hour. Everyone queuing for the toilet to wash their hands...and all 6 feet apart?.

I don't actually think it will work at all.
We may open only for kids of essential workers.

It's going to be unmanageable.
 
Looby said:
All the decent ones I could find were hideously expensive or could deliver in July. Read the reviews carefully if you do buy some, I’ve seen some shockers.
Really wish I could get some more FFP3 from my friend but they can’t spare them understandably.
I’d like a couple of washable ones with filters.
Click to expand...

Thanks!

So then it makes me wonder the point. It's all well and good us being told we should do this, and putting it on to us, but with very little guidance on what actually constitutes proper equipment. Seems like it'll lead to people using poor products and feeling safer.

I'll still use my mask and one I buy, but in the grand scheme of things....
 
Sugar Kane said:
Obviously you've never had to control a class for 6 hours.

Kids...teens...will not manage 6 ft distance at all times..
What's more schools are not designed for that.
The only way they will open is part time for pupils.
4 kids in a class. The rest online at home. Same lessons done on devices. No paper.
And rotate every 2 days so different kids get a chance to come to school for practical subjects.

But it will still be very nearly impossible to follow guidelines on social distancing. Kids on school buses? One per 2 rows? And they will break rules.
Teachers having to stay feet from pupils? How do you help a 5yr old with their shoes?
Let alone the handwashing every hour. Everyone queuing for the toilet to wash their hands...and all 6 feet apart?.

I don't actually think it will work at all.
We may open only for kids of essential workers.

It's going to be unmanageable.
Click to expand...

Yeah.... But have you tried or even thought about it, or did you just throw your arms up in the air?

In all seriousness we were talking about this for our niece. No way is she going to be able to commit to social distancing at the age of five. I mean their brains just don't work like that and she obviously doesn't understand exactly what's going on anyway.
 
BristolEcho said:
Yeah.... But have you tried or even thought about it, or did you just throw your arms up in the air?

In all seriousness we were talking about this for our niece. No way is she going to be able to commit to social distancing at the age of five. I mean their brains just don't work like that and she obviously doesn't understand exactly what's going on anyway.
Click to expand...


I've given it lots of thought.
It will not work.
 
The NEU ( teachers union) have put out petition to the PM people can sign. This imo is asking all the right questions.

actionnetwork.org

Open schools only when it is safe

To The Prime Minister: We, the undersigned, oppose any re-opening of schools before it is safe to do so. As a matter of urgency and certainly well before any proposal to re-open schools is published, please can you share with teachers and parents: Your modelling of the increased number of...
actionnetwork.org

CURRENT NUMBER OF SIGNATURES: 401,649

To The Prime Minister:

We, the undersigned, oppose any re-opening of schools before it is safe to do so. As a matter of urgency and certainly well before any proposal to re-open schools is published, please can you share with teachers and parents:

  • Your modelling of the increased number of cases and mortalities amongst children, their parents, carers and extended families, and their teachers and support staff as a result of the re-opening of schools.
  • Whether such modelling is based on some notion that social distancing could be implemented in schools (we ask this because many teachers think this would be a foolhardy assumption)?
  • Would your modelling be based on concrete plans to have regular testing of children and staff, availability of appropriate PPE and enhanced levels of cleaning - with all of which we are currently experiencing severe difficulties?
  • Whether your modelling would include plans for children and staff in vulnerable health categories, or living with people in vulnerable health categories not to be in school or college?
  • Your latest evidence on which people are most vulnerable to permanent consequences or death from the virus, for example the evidence of the impact on those who live in crowded accommodation, those with different comorbidities, those from different ethnic groups and of different ages and both sexes.
  • Are you developing plans for extensive testing, contact tracing and quarantine in society as a whole?
  • Teachers see that countries successfully implementing such strategies have many fewer cases and many many fewer mortalities than we do in the UK. Would you intend these plans be in place well before schools are re-opened, which seems essential to us?
  • If you are not developing such plans what is your overall approach and is it dependent on an assumption that those who have had the virus are then immune?
 
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