two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
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Pupils and staff look forward to more familiar routine as schools return in September
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Coronavirus in the UK - news, lockdown and discussion
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SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
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Pupils and staff look forward to more familiar routine as schools return in September
Advertisement feature from the UK Government
Except here in Devon where it'll still be masks and bubbles
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Pupils and staff look forward to more familiar routine as schools return in September
Advertisement feature from the UK Government
So to be clear we have simultaneously a discussion about the school half term being used as an extended firebreak combined with the government using our money to pay for adverts which say its all fine in schools?
What a time to be alive. Those of us that survive that is.
elbows
Well-Known Member
I note that the following denial doesnt actually deny any of the important things. The denial is just built around the fact the measures only get triggered if the situation is bad enough.Interesting lockdown speculation
Government plans October firebreak lockdown if Covid hospital admissions remain high
A senior Government scientist and Sage member has told i half-term could be extended to two weeks in late October if NHS is pushed to the brink of capacityinews.co.uk
Covid: No plans for October lockdown, says government
Officials deny a newspaper report saying new rules could come in around England's half-term holiday.
www.bbc.co.uk
StoneRoad
heckling from the back!
Interesting reaction to the Hospital's policy stance [from a member of frontline staff]
Covid: Unvaccinated frontline NHS staff at Southampton hospital to be redeployed
Southampton trust says it wants to keep patients safe but one staff member says she feels "bullied".
www.bbc.co.uk
cupid_stunt
Merry fecking Christmas.
How about the freedom of choice for the patients not to be infected by you?
StoneRoad
heckling from the back!
Exactly !
That "it's my own risk" is a serious fallacy ...
I hope more hospital trusts start this re-deployment process. I believe the one that employs my SiL is starting something similar, now they've got down into the real refusniks, after a long term but low key persuasion campaign.
_Russ_
Never not Knowingly Misunderstood
Thing is proving it aint straightforward.
No doubt many patients have already caught it from Hospital staff (I know at one point a month or so ago some Hospitals only required twice weekly Lateral flow tests for staff so fuck knows how many of them really have it) how do you prove that a Patient caught it from an unvaccinated member?
Anyone heard of any litigation in this respect yet?, I havn't
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Not if they are examining your eyes, lifting you off the bed, administering just about any procedure etc.
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
Wouldn't an analysis of the particular form of covid be able to tell who it came from?
I'd have thought hospitals who let front line staff wander round unvaccinated would have difficulty demonstrating they'd performed due care, particularly if a patient had entered the hospital without covid.
I had an x ray on my knee the other day and the unwell looking woman next to me in a packed waiting room said you might not want to sit there Ive got covid. I moved.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
FFS! Even though she may have come via A and E there are still multiple warnings about not attending if you have Covid symptoms (or, presumably, going through a different route if you have something serious that needs immediate attention).
Steel Icarus
ersatz maven
What a fucking idiot
Steel Icarus
ersatz maven
Yeah, I meant the Covid woman was an idiotI think S☼I meant her
elbows
Well-Known Member
Authorities wont ignore pathways of transmission involving healthcare workers just because there are also other sources of transmission in hospitals.
Some studies have been done involving genomic sequencing in order to better understand hospital spread. These studies are not really comprehensive enough for me to start throwing around solid numbers that would indicate proportion of cases where healthcare workers are involved or anything like that. But the studies certainly indicate that they obtain a much less complete picture of clusters if they leave contacts involving healthcare workers out of the picture.
An intro to one study last year:
Spread of COVID-19 mapped in hospitals to ‘break the chain’ of transmission
A first-of-its kind clinical trial, led by scientists at UCL, will evaluate the use of ‘real time’ viral genomic data to reduce the spread of COVID-19 within hospitals.
The results of one study:
Genomic and healthcare dynamics of nosocomial SARS-CoV-2 transmission
Characterisation of SARS-CoV-2 genomic divergence in healthcare-associated outbreaks demonstrates that the inclusion of healthcare workers in contact networks identifies additional links in SARS-CoV-2 transmission pathways.
elifesciences.org
I have very mixed feelings about mandatory vaccination. It a difficult area, but its certainly not one where I would seek to diminish the merits by pointing to other risks that exist in that environment. Need to tackle things on as many fronts as possible.
Yea elbows having read the findings of the study you posted it confirms that patient spread was a major factor and confirms HC workers playing a role in transmission.
I'll say that things change, in march 2020 failure to protect patients and HCPs led to outbreaks in care homes and deaths in hospital workers.
However the picture is different now partly due to extensive testing of inpatients, high levels of vaccination of both patients and HCPs and better protocols but as my previous post shows not always effective, what triggers me is the disrespect to personal choice of workers who most likely have caught covid a long time ago and have antibodies. I don't know any HCPs who worked frontline and didn't. At this point there is very low levels in hospitals. They are generally safe environments as much as anywhere else.
I'll say that things change, in march 2020 failure to protect patients and HCPs led to outbreaks in care homes and deaths in hospital workers.
However the picture is different now partly due to extensive testing of inpatients, high levels of vaccination of both patients and HCPs and better protocols but as my previous post shows not always effective, what triggers me is the disrespect to personal choice of workers who most likely have caught covid a long time ago and have antibodies. I don't know any HCPs who worked frontline and didn't. At this point there is very low levels in hospitals. They are generally safe environments as much as anywhere else.
elbows
Well-Known Member
There were really huge numbers of hospital acquired infections in the autumn/winter wave(s) too. Which is not to say there had not been improvements by then compared to the first wave situation. But there was still a big problem with spread in hospitals later. This time around I havent seen detailed analysis and data yet but from the vaguer data I have seen, so far the situation has been much more impressive. I am unsure quite how much of that to attribute to vaccines, it is very tempting to attribute a lot to that, in regards both patients and workers. I wait nervously to see whether these gains hold true this autumn and winter.
I am not sure whether I believe vaccination should be an entirely personal choice for all workers in heath and care. Having seen the eye watering number of infections that have been attributed to hospital spread in the pandemic so far, I am really torn. I suspect that if I were placed in a position where I was the one making a decision about that, I would not want unvaccinated people in frontline healthcare roles at all, regardless of whether they'd been infected in the past.
I am not sure whether I believe vaccination should be an entirely personal choice for all workers in heath and care. Having seen the eye watering number of infections that have been attributed to hospital spread in the pandemic so far, I am really torn. I suspect that if I were placed in a position where I was the one making a decision about that, I would not want unvaccinated people in frontline healthcare roles at all, regardless of whether they'd been infected in the past.
elbows
Well-Known Member
But like I said, I'm torn on that, so almost as soon as I write something like that last post, I start to have doubts and end up feeling glad that I dont have to make decisions about such things.
If I restrict myself to look at the issue only from a single angle, its obviously much easier. For example I imagine my reaction if one of my loved ones had to go into hospital and interact with unvaccinated staff, I would think patients should have the right to expect much better than that.
Another decision I would find incredibly difficult is the question of booster jabs. I see this is in the news again because some vaccine scientists dont want it to happen soon because it will rob them of certain real-world data. Data is very valuable so I can see where they are coming from, but I dont really like the full implications of this sort of thinking, it could place a fair chunk of the population at unnecessary risk for a period. But then I also dont like global vaccine inequalities and might prefer to focus on initial doses in other countries at this stage.
If I restrict myself to look at the issue only from a single angle, its obviously much easier. For example I imagine my reaction if one of my loved ones had to go into hospital and interact with unvaccinated staff, I would think patients should have the right to expect much better than that.
Another decision I would find incredibly difficult is the question of booster jabs. I see this is in the news again because some vaccine scientists dont want it to happen soon because it will rob them of certain real-world data. Data is very valuable so I can see where they are coming from, but I dont really like the full implications of this sort of thinking, it could place a fair chunk of the population at unnecessary risk for a period. But then I also dont like global vaccine inequalities and might prefer to focus on initial doses in other countries at this stage.
AstraZeneca bosses warn against rush for boosters
Data on whether they are needed is still awaited but ministers say the NHS is ready to go if they are.
www.bbc.co.uk
elbows
Well-Known Member
Watch out for the detail behind this sort of statement from Johnson:
When it comes to daily hospital admissions in England, I cannot comment on what the very latest proportions are in terms of vaccinated/unvaccinated. Its been reported in my local press that of the covid patients in hospital here, half were not double jabbed.
What I'd draw attention to is the description of the changing age profile. Because the claim still has some truth to it, but the shifting picture over the last month or so is absent from that description.
The winter wave featured periods where for England approximately 60% of the daily hospital admissions for covid were in people aged 65 and over. Around the time of the mid July 2021 peak, the picture was indeed quite different, peoples aged 65 and over were down to about 30% of daily admissions. But ever since then that has been creeping up again, and in the most recent data those aged 65+ are getting close to accounting for 50% of daily hospital admissions.
I think this is probably one of the larger stories not being told at the moment. I have told it here before via some graphs, and the trend has continued since I last did that.
Covid: Boris Johnson concerned over unvaccinated hospital patients
Boris Johnson says a "higher proportion" of younger people are being affected by the virus.
www.bbc.co.uk
When it comes to daily hospital admissions in England, I cannot comment on what the very latest proportions are in terms of vaccinated/unvaccinated. Its been reported in my local press that of the covid patients in hospital here, half were not double jabbed.
What I'd draw attention to is the description of the changing age profile. Because the claim still has some truth to it, but the shifting picture over the last month or so is absent from that description.
The winter wave featured periods where for England approximately 60% of the daily hospital admissions for covid were in people aged 65 and over. Around the time of the mid July 2021 peak, the picture was indeed quite different, peoples aged 65 and over were down to about 30% of daily admissions. But ever since then that has been creeping up again, and in the most recent data those aged 65+ are getting close to accounting for 50% of daily hospital admissions.
I think this is probably one of the larger stories not being told at the moment. I have told it here before via some graphs, and the trend has continued since I last did that.
elbows
Well-Known Member
I have moaned recently that unlike Scotland, Englands published number of hospitalisations etc by vaccine status was limited to those cases deemed to be Delta, and was only showing a small fraction of the full picture as a result (even though we expect most cases are actually Delta these days, they hadnt use that assumption in their methodology).
It looks like they have now rectified this, though I havent actually looked into the data yet.
It looks like they have now rectified this, though I havent actually looked into the data yet.
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