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Coronavirus in the UK - news, lockdown and discussion

Are we ready for the pandemic to move to the endemic stage though?
What would determine when we're ready?

I'd say it's when we've got everyone who wants to be, vaccinated, and there's no reasonable expectation of near-future developments in vaccines being able to change the picture significantly.

I'm not sure if we're close to that point or not.
 
I think that it means that countries like NZ will end up with a similar situation to what we'll end up with here. The difference - assuming they wait until the population is well vaccinated before opening up - will be that they will have got to that point without losing so many lives along the way.

If it's true that vaccines can't stop Covid becoming endemic, then it looks to me that everyone ending up with endemic covid was inevitable whatever. In that sense, I'm not sure that the UK's approach will have had a major impact on where NZ ends up in the long term... unless the argument is that if everyone had kept numbers low, the delta variant would never have appeared. I don't know if that's plausible.

The idea that it would ever have been possible for the whole world to pursue and achieve "zero covid" seems a bit fantasy to me - unless it had been entirely contained right at the beginning in Wuhan.

NZ will have got to that point with many less lives lost, many less hospitalisations, less periods under lockdown, less economic damage, less mental health damage, less exhausted medical staff, etc.

Complete eradication of the virus would have been a very long shot indeed, but it would have been worth a go because you dont know unless you try, and because of the other benefits all the way along as mentioned above.

In terms of new variants emerging, the rate of mutation is tightly linked to the number of cases, there is no doubt about that. This doent mean we wouldnt get new variants eventually, but it does have big implications as to the timing of their emergence, and their opportunities to dominate. Because to dominate they need not only to come into being, but also to have sufficient opportunities to spread, less dead ends in the chains of transmission. And very tough policies and restricted behaviours mean more dead ends. But it wouldnt have been plain sailing, eg if the virus had been kept at much lower levels until vaccines arrived, and then restrictions and behaviours changed, then there would be a lot of selection pressure on the virus and one of the first major resulting strains we'd have got could have had more vaccine-busting properties than Delta has. So there are definite limits to my claims on this front!

I will do another post in regards peoples reactions to the news about herd immunity going down the toilet. I am exasperated about some of the reactions.
 
What would determine when we're ready?

I'd say it's when we've got everyone who wants to be, vaccinated, and there's no reasonable expectation of near-future developments in vaccines being able to change the picture significantly.

I'm not sure if we're close to that point or not.
In practical terms being ready means having a healthcare system that can actually cope with the level of severely ill people generated by the number of cases present during the endemic steady state. Or being prepared to modify behaviours or introduce restrictions to bring that number down.

I do not consider the number of cases seen this summer, with the schools closed, to be a useful guide as to what numbers to expect from endemic covid. I consider we are currently in a wave and that things will change again in future, so there is little point in me trying to judge the eventual endemic status of this virus based on things we are seeing at the moment. And even if I turn out to be wrong about that, there is still no point proceeding with that line of thought until it has been clearly demonstrated that I'm wrong via the passage of time.

Here are some of the reasons I think the whole endemic angle has come up now:

Its being twisted to fit the 'learning to live with covid' agenda which I consider to be premature to say the least.

People were sold some lies involving simplistic versions of herd immunity, and were encouraged to believe that vaccines could carry more pandemic weight than was likely to be the case. Some of that now needs to be corrected, including peoples expectations about the end-point of this pandemic.

Lots of expert commentary was tied to framing and narratives involving waves and expectations about the timing and scale of those waves, and they got egg on their face due to the 'unexpected' July peak. They are now much less keen to offer predictions on this front going forwards, but their new narratives are still influenced by case data over the last month or so. So we inevitably end up with narratives that have a relationship to the relatively stable but high number of cases seen in England since the initial fall after that July peak.

The likes of Whitty always made no secret of his expectation that the virus would be endemic, and I dont think those authorities ever expected vaccines to be so brilliant as to offer sterilising immunity against this virus. So I dont really think there is anything new about the emerging consensus, other than more of them talking about it openly now. And I have to be a bit wary of that due to the timing relative to recent case levels, the learning to live with covid agenda etc. Which is not to say there are no valid reasons to go on about it more now, eg presumptions that vaccines would not offer sterilising immunity are increasingly backed up by actual data these days.

Also a permanently endemic state of affairs for this virus doesnt even mean that the era of waves of this virus are over. And it certainly doesnt automatically mean an end to all restrictions. Because a steady state implies an R of 1, and changes to the seasons, behaviours, levels of population immunity and the virus itself would be expected to create periods where R is not 1, and an epidemic wave becomes plausible. How well we manage to keep that situation balanced in the years ahead is in some ways epidemiological business as usual, whether that be via public health messaging, restrictions, or ongoing vaccination programme boosters and changes to the vaccines. A simplistic version of this is present in notions such as 'there will be good winters and bad winters', so I'm not suggesting that era will involve big scary waves as often as seen during the acute pandemic phase, it could be something that we have to act upon every few years. Or it might not pan out quite that way at all.
 
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Skipping over the bit where Nick Triggle explains current death rates and what experts expected in ways I partially disagree with, a piece of analysis that was no doubt deemed necessary because there was a high figure today due to the reporting catch up from the long bank holiday weekend, we also have this from him:

The more difficult thing to predict is what will happen in September when schools are fully open across the UK and people are back in workplaces and return to more normal behaviour and mixing patterns.

Scotland, where the holiday season ends earlier, has already seen a sharp rise.

If this increase is sustained and then repeated across the UK it could cause significant pressures on the NHS, not to mention pose some very difficult questions about the level of virus that we can tolerate circulating.

But there is also hope the level of immunity built up will keep a lid on the virus and mean any rise in infections and serious illness is limited.

I dont think dificult questions are involved but rather answers that are clearly unpalatable to some.

Anyway I got that from the 17:06 entry of the BBC live updates page. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-58406184
 

This third dose should be offered to people over 12 who were severely immunosuppressed at the time of their first or second dose, including those with leukaemia, advanced HIV and recent organ transplants. These people may not mount a full response to vaccination and therefore may be less protected than the wider population.

This offer is separate to any potential booster programme. The Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI) is still deliberating the potential benefits of booster vaccines for the rest of the population and is awaiting further evidence to inform this decision.
Those with less serious immunosuppression are not included in this advice but are likely to become eligible for another dose as part of a potential booster programme, pending further advice from the JCVI.

In the event of a booster programme, it is expected that severely immunosuppressed people will also be offered a booster dose, at a suitable interval after their third dose.
 
Bit of a strange article in de Volkskrant from the Netherlands:

Brits onderzoek: een derde geïnfecteerde tieners kampt met long covid​


"uk research a third of infected teenagers struggling with long covid"

and have problems after three months, but doesn't say which uk research, and I can't see anything saying that on uk sites.
 
Bit of a strange article in de Volkskrant from the Netherlands:



"uk research a third of infected teenagers struggling with long covid"

and have problems after three months, but doesn't say which uk research, and I can't see anything saying that on uk sites.

It seems to be reporting on the University College London and Public Health England study.

Almost a third of teens experience coronavirus symptoms three months after diagnosis, according to a U.K. study that suggests long COVID also afflicts the young.

The children aged 11 to 17 reported persistent symptoms such as fatigue and shortness of breath, according to the study led by University College London and Public Health England. The findings were published in pre-print form, meaning they weren’t peer-reviewed.


However, here it's reported as 1 in 7...

Up to one in seven children who test positive for coronavirus could still have symptoms linked to the disease three months later, according to a study that suggests the prevalence of long Covid in young people is lower than initially feared.

The analysis, led by University College London and Public Health England researchers, drew on survey responses from nearly 7,000 11- to 17-year-olds who underwent PCR tests between January and March. Of these, 3,065 tested positive and 3,739 tested negative.

Many children in either group reported at least one symptom associated with coronavirus when surveyed at an average of 15 weeks after their test. Roughly 30% of those in the positive group reported having at least three or more symptoms after that time, and about 16% in the negative group.

 
There was also this yesterday, but its by Nick Triggle so involves some spin and dubious framing. The actual study doesnt seem bad to me, but by focussing on the reassuring bits by contrasting their findings with the worst-case fears of the past, I end up not liking the tone of the BBC story.


But even I will give them a bonus point for actually linking to the study.


I especially like this bit from the study:

Taking the studies together, there is consistent evidence that some teenagers will have persisting symptoms after testing positive for SARS-CoV-2 and that mental and physical health symptoms are closely related. Avoiding false dichotomies between mind and body is likely to be helpful as, for example, stressed individuals may present with somatic symptoms or conversely persisting physical symptoms may be associated with depression and anxiety. Some individuals may develop somatic symptoms disorders29 and the existing evidence for effective management of conditions such as pain, headache and fatigue30 might be usefully evaluated in CYP presenting with persistent physical symptoms post-COVID. CYP with clinically impaired mental ill health should receive the appropriate evidence-based treatments whether or not they have physical symptoms. Family approaches and understanding of persistent symptoms is key31. Investigation of persisting symptoms may be needed or requested, with consideration of the potentially negative impact of protracted medical treatments or investigations if no abnormalities are found29.

I cant quote all the sensible bits or hope to do the whole thing justice with a summary. But its certainly a complicated subject, especially in teenagers because non-Covid, normal background levels of things like fatigue are very high in this group in non-pandemic times.
 
Data on vaccinated/unvaccinated people hospitalised in England gets on my nerves a bit, because it covers only a subset of hospital admissions.

By this I mean that in England the dashboard shows roughly 47,000 hospital admissions/diagnoses since June 2021 began. But the analysis thats made public has a narrow Delta angle to it, it only covers 'confirmed or likely' Delta cases, and this number is very much smaller than the total admisions/diagnoses. I would prefer it if numbers were available which included all admissions, rather than the subset. Because I have no way of knowing if the proportions shown below hold true for the whole picture. And frankly since Delta dominates the 'likely' Delta cases should really be almost all cases these days, which would give a figure far higher than 9,472 hospitalisations.

Some 9,472 people had been admitted to hospital in England up to 29 August who were either confirmed or likely to have had the Delta variant of Covid, PHE says.

Of those 5,098 were under 50. Of the under-50s 73% were unvaccinated, 14% had received one dose and 10% were fully jabbed.

Of the 4,374 people hospitalised aged 50 and over 30% were unvaccinated, 9% had received one dose and 61% had received two doses.

That quote is from the 10:58 entry of the BBC live updates page https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-58431842 with the underlying data likely coming from https://assets.publishing.service.g...le/1014926/Technical_Briefing_22_21_09_02.pdf
 
I'm not surprised. They are probably concerned about what the impact of the rare heart inflammation side-effect will do to attitudes if there are headlines about vaccine deaths in that group as a result.

Because that would be expected to affect not just attitudes towards children getting the covid vaccine, but also children and getting other vaccines going forwards, and overall attitudes towards covid vaccines.
 
I'm not surprised. They are probably concerned about what the impact of the rare heart inflammation side-effect will do to attitudes if there are headlines about vaccine deaths in that group as a result.

Because that would be expected to affect not just attitudes towards children getting the covid vaccine, but also children and getting other vaccines going forwards, and overall attitudes towards covid vaccines.

The heart side-effect isn't fatal. The concern is over possible unknown long-term health effects stemming from this side-effect vs the 1:500,000 risk of severe complications from COVID.

JCVI didn't make this decision based on parents not taking their kids for measles jabs, but on the risks from COVID vs the risks of the vaccine for 12-15 year olds.
 
In theory it can be fatal, which is why the article you link to also mentions the death of a woman. I note that the US data mentioned in that article covers 16-29 year olds and 18-24 year olds, it doesnt say anything about people younger than that. But yes, I did not mean to indicate that death was the only concern, thats at the extreme and less likely end of their spectrum of concerns, but its still relevant.

Its also clear that there are plenty of unknowns about the extent to which catching the virus can also lead to the same complication of myocarditis. And there are a bunch of other considerations which Im sure inform their thinking, the one you mention is a central one but its not the only factor.

Some of them are discussed in this article:


It includes the following:

But the JCVI's caution may mean it's not persuaded by the data it has seen to date. The last thing it wants is to give the go-ahead and then for a series of adverse events to dent parents' confidence in other childhood vaccines.
 
That same side effect is also why people might have seen stories in July about not exercising strenuously after vaccination. Such stories may have been driven by Singapore making a version of that recommendation, I'm not sure that many other countries have taken this approach:

As a precautionary measure, adolescents and men below 30 years of age are advised to avoid strenuous physical activities such as running, weightlifting, competitive sports, or playing ball games for one week after their first and second vaccination doses.

 
Sounds like the government may get the CMO's to approve of jabs for 12-15 year olds because JCVI werent prepared to make that recommendation on their own.

The UK's Health Secretary Sajid Javid says he and the other UK health secretaries have written to the chief medical officers to ask that they consider the vaccination of 12 to 15-year-olds "from a broader perspective, as suggested by the JCVI".

“We will then consider the advice from the chief medical officers, building on the advice from the JCVI, before making a decision shortly.”

Thats from the 15:59 entry on the BBC live updates page https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-58431842
 
The loons with have a field day, if it goes ahead on the advice of the CMO's, but not the JCVI.
 
Will be uncomfortable to say the least if otherwise healthy children start to die after being vaccinated.
 
Well although I was disagreeing with platinumsage about various details, there were some very good reasons for them to draw attention to the lack of actual short term deaths. I brought up deaths not because I expect to see loads of them, but because that is at the extreme end of where the worst-case fears take people who have to make these judgement calls. I was somewhat sloppily using it as shorthand for the full spectrum of concerns.

I'm not the best person to provide reassurances because I always fear being misleading if I rely too much on stating just how low the risk is. In this area like so many others in the pandemic, I struggle to escape the whole 'very low percentages of very high numbers' thing. In this case to be sure of avoiding 'loss of confidence in medical authorities and vaccines', I'd have to be able to guarantee no deaths at all, and how can I really ever go that far that about any risk of death?

Anyway they were also correct to draw attention to concerns over possible longer term consequences. For example even in the following sort of article which despite being able to offer some meaningful reasurance about low severity of cases, still features one marker of concern for them (which I've put in bold type):


Postvaccination myocarditis was found to be mild in most pediatric patients following receipt of the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine (BNT162b2), according to a small case series study published in JAMA Cardiology.

Study authors reviewed the cases of 15 patients hospitalized with myocarditis within 30 days of receiving the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine between May 1 and July 15, 2021 at the Department of Cardiology, Boston Children’s Hospital. Fourteen of the patients were male and the average age was 15 years.

Three patients had decreased left ventricular ejection fraction and 5 patients had abnormal global longitudinal or circumferential strain. Findings consistent with myocarditis were reported in 13 patients using cardiac magnetic resonance imaging; late gadolinium enhancement was present in 12 patients.

None of the patients were admitted to the intensive care unit and all were discharged within 5 days. At follow-up (1 to 13 days after discharge), echocardiogram results were reported to be normal for all but 1 patient.

“In this case series, in short-term follow-up, patients were mildly affected,” the study authors concluded. Given the presence of late gadolinium enhancement in most patients, they noted that longitudinal studies were needed to better understand the long-term risks.

That marker has somewhat understood implications for health in other contexts. But I expect this is another area where not enough research has been done in the past, and a lot of future understanding of it will come the hard way, via real world patient data in the years and decades to come.

I suspect there is also low public awareness about viral myocarditis in pre-pandemic times. That the broader theoretical risks and long-term implications of myocarditis in general may be new to people is not going to help moderate reactions to them hearing about the vaccine-induced version of myocarditis. eg I wouldnt be surprised if people tend to think about heart health in terms of defects people might be born with, and genetic and lifestyle aspects which cause issues for heart health as we grow older. I'm not sure theres been much room in that picture for other possible dimensions such as the heart sometimes picking up damage over time via various infections, especially those usually considered to be far from deadly in the young.
 
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The loons with have a field day, if it goes ahead on the advice of the CMO's, but not the JCVI.
JCVI advice does have baked into it the idea that others might want to take a broader look at the balance and reach a different judgement. In some ways this is sensible and reasonable, in other ways its an establishsment fudge that leaves wiggle room but doesnt exactly provide a solid foundation on which to build confidence. Not that any of this detail will make much difference to loons, but it could affect how a broader group react, it may add to the sense of unease.

After finding various government statements, letters from health secretaries to CMOs about this Letter from UK health ministers to UK CMOs on COVID-19 vaccination of 12 to 15 year olds: 3 September 2021 , I finally found the actual updated advice from JCVI:


It includes:

The assessment by the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI) is that the health benefits from vaccination are marginally greater than the potential known harms. However, the margin of benefit is considered too small to support universal vaccination of healthy 12 to 15 year olds at this time.

It is not within the JCVI’s remit to consider the wider societal impacts of vaccination, including educational benefits. The government may wish to seek further views on the wider societal and educational impacts from the Chief Medical Officers of the UK 4 nations.

There is evidence of an association between mRNA COVID-19 vaccines and myocarditis. This is an extremely rare adverse event. The medium- to long-term effects are unknown and long-term follow-up is being conducted.

Given the very low risk of serious COVID-19 disease in otherwise healthy 12 to 15 year olds, considerations on the potential harms and benefits of vaccination are very finely balanced and a precautionary approach was agreed.

In some ways by already having agreed to vaccines for that age group where specific conditions that increase their covid risk are present, and by expanding that list of conditions further today, they've ended up making it harder to justify vaccinating children in that age range that dont have those risks.
 
Ive mostly avoided young parents for years anyway, do my fucking head in they do, they perceive the world as only existing to facilitate their needs, it’s completely natural of course but I reserve the right to show that demographic as little concern as they do everyone else
 
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