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Coronavirus in the UK - news, lockdown and discussion

Interesting lockdown speculation

I note that the following denial doesnt actually deny any of the important things. The denial is just built around the fact the measures only get triggered if the situation is bad enough.

 
No, it's other people's risk as well, you complete idiot.

(From the article StoneRoad has posted above).
Exactly !
That "it's my own risk" is a serious fallacy ...

I hope more hospital trusts start this re-deployment process. I believe the one that employs my SiL is starting something similar, now they've got down into the real refusniks, after a long term but low key persuasion campaign.
 
If nothing else, a hospital trust would lay itself open to claims of negligence and compensation if a patient caught covid from one of these tossers.
Thing is proving it aint straightforward.
No doubt many patients have already caught it from Hospital staff (I know at one point a month or so ago some Hospitals only required twice weekly Lateral flow tests for staff so fuck knows how many of them really have it) how do you prove that a Patient caught it from an unvaccinated member?
Anyone heard of any litigation in this respect yet?, I havn't
 
Hospitals are full of unmasked unvaccinated patients. An HCP who is wearing a mask and sanitising their hands is far less of a risk than someone in the bed next to you or their visitors. They are public spaces.
 
Hospitals are full of unmasked unvaccinated patients. An HCP who is wearing a mask and sanitising their hands is far less of a risk than someone in the bed next to you or their visitors. They are public spaces.
Not if they are examining your eyes, lifting you off the bed, administering just about any procedure etc.
 
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Thing is proving it aint straightforward.
No doubt many patients have already caught it from Hospital staff (I know at one point a month or so ago some Hospitals only required twice weekly Lateral flow tests for staff so fuck knows how many of them really have it) how do you prove that a Patient caught it from an unvaccinated member?
Anyone heard of any litigation in this respect yet?, I havn't
Wouldn't an analysis of the particular form of covid be able to tell who it came from?

I'd have thought hospitals who let front line staff wander round unvaccinated would have difficulty demonstrating they'd performed due care, particularly if a patient had entered the hospital without covid.
 
I had an x ray on my knee the other day and the unwell looking woman next to me in a packed waiting room said you might not want to sit there Ive got covid. I moved.
FFS! Even though she may have come via A and E there are still multiple warnings about not attending if you have Covid symptoms (or, presumably, going through a different route if you have something serious that needs immediate attention).
 
What a fucking idiot

genuine question, what are you meant to do then if you have coronavirus but need urgent medical attention for something else. and presumably get to the hospital they stick you somewhere to wait. if there isn’t an isolation ward or something and you can’t sit in the car park...
 
She was a Covid patient the porter who brought her presumably for a CXR fucked up and left her in the main area. I told staff that it needed to be flagged as an incident but I doubt they did.
 
Hospitals are full of unmasked unvaccinated patients. An HCP who is wearing a mask and sanitising their hands is far less of a risk than someone in the bed next to you or their visitors. They are public spaces.

Authorities wont ignore pathways of transmission involving healthcare workers just because there are also other sources of transmission in hospitals.

Some studies have been done involving genomic sequencing in order to better understand hospital spread. These studies are not really comprehensive enough for me to start throwing around solid numbers that would indicate proportion of cases where healthcare workers are involved or anything like that. But the studies certainly indicate that they obtain a much less complete picture of clusters if they leave contacts involving healthcare workers out of the picture.

An intro to one study last year:


The results of one study:


I have very mixed feelings about mandatory vaccination. It a difficult area, but its certainly not one where I would seek to diminish the merits by pointing to other risks that exist in that environment. Need to tackle things on as many fronts as possible.
 
Yea elbows having read the findings of the study you posted it confirms that patient spread was a major factor and confirms HC workers playing a role in transmission.
I'll say that things change, in march 2020 failure to protect patients and HCPs led to outbreaks in care homes and deaths in hospital workers.
However the picture is different now partly due to extensive testing of inpatients, high levels of vaccination of both patients and HCPs and better protocols but as my previous post shows not always effective, what triggers me is the disrespect to personal choice of workers who most likely have caught covid a long time ago and have antibodies. I don't know any HCPs who worked frontline and didn't. At this point there is very low levels in hospitals. They are generally safe environments as much as anywhere else.
 
There were really huge numbers of hospital acquired infections in the autumn/winter wave(s) too. Which is not to say there had not been improvements by then compared to the first wave situation. But there was still a big problem with spread in hospitals later. This time around I havent seen detailed analysis and data yet but from the vaguer data I have seen, so far the situation has been much more impressive. I am unsure quite how much of that to attribute to vaccines, it is very tempting to attribute a lot to that, in regards both patients and workers. I wait nervously to see whether these gains hold true this autumn and winter.

I am not sure whether I believe vaccination should be an entirely personal choice for all workers in heath and care. Having seen the eye watering number of infections that have been attributed to hospital spread in the pandemic so far, I am really torn. I suspect that if I were placed in a position where I was the one making a decision about that, I would not want unvaccinated people in frontline healthcare roles at all, regardless of whether they'd been infected in the past.
 
But like I said, I'm torn on that, so almost as soon as I write something like that last post, I start to have doubts and end up feeling glad that I dont have to make decisions about such things.

If I restrict myself to look at the issue only from a single angle, its obviously much easier. For example I imagine my reaction if one of my loved ones had to go into hospital and interact with unvaccinated staff, I would think patients should have the right to expect much better than that.

Another decision I would find incredibly difficult is the question of booster jabs. I see this is in the news again because some vaccine scientists dont want it to happen soon because it will rob them of certain real-world data. Data is very valuable so I can see where they are coming from, but I dont really like the full implications of this sort of thinking, it could place a fair chunk of the population at unnecessary risk for a period. But then I also dont like global vaccine inequalities and might prefer to focus on initial doses in other countries at this stage.

 
Watch out for the detail behind this sort of statement from Johnson:

Three quarters of those hospitalised had not had a Covid jab, with a "higher proportion" of younger people now being affected, he said.


When it comes to daily hospital admissions in England, I cannot comment on what the very latest proportions are in terms of vaccinated/unvaccinated. Its been reported in my local press that of the covid patients in hospital here, half were not double jabbed.

What I'd draw attention to is the description of the changing age profile. Because the claim still has some truth to it, but the shifting picture over the last month or so is absent from that description.

The winter wave featured periods where for England approximately 60% of the daily hospital admissions for covid were in people aged 65 and over. Around the time of the mid July 2021 peak, the picture was indeed quite different, peoples aged 65 and over were down to about 30% of daily admissions. But ever since then that has been creeping up again, and in the most recent data those aged 65+ are getting close to accounting for 50% of daily hospital admissions.

I think this is probably one of the larger stories not being told at the moment. I have told it here before via some graphs, and the trend has continued since I last did that.
 
I have moaned recently that unlike Scotland, Englands published number of hospitalisations etc by vaccine status was limited to those cases deemed to be Delta, and was only showing a small fraction of the full picture as a result (even though we expect most cases are actually Delta these days, they hadnt use that assumption in their methodology).

It looks like they have now rectified this, though I havent actually looked into the data yet.

 
Hope nobody minds me posting other tweets from that series. It should be rather obvious why I was moaning about this picture previously being missing.



 
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