Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
no, where's the basis for your implication that this was a sop thrown to the unionists?
Claudy bomb - the priest that got away with murder
- Thread starter Chairman Meow
- Start date
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
quite. so it is unlikely that this was
cop-op said:
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
Well no, since it appears likely that elements of the British state knew about the (alleged) involement well before then; like, er, specifically when they made the deal? And it sounds like it was a well-believed suspicion amongst the RUC etc at the time too, um so your point is?
For it to be a sop it doesn't need to have been agreed at the time of the BS inquiry.
It was just a passing thought btw, not a great theory, I'm not sure why it's got your goat so badly (unless you are still harbouring grudges from all the rubbish you were posting about cycling on another thread?).
My broader point was that this whole thing seems dodgy - and I don't mean in the sense that the media are portraying it, ie "evil PIRA priest goes/went free horror". Have you anything interesting to say about that?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
so why did you say
a passing thought? i'm surprised it stopped in your head at all.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
Deareg
Well-Known Member
yeah, i believe you are right, but until something is done it is going to continue to be an open festering wound, it will probably have to be done without British government involvement and more than likely without the involvement of sinn fein and the provosas they have an awful lot of skeletons to keep hidden as well
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i don't know why you keep bringing bicycles into it, no bikes at claudy afaik
You really are pissed about those bicycles aren't you?
So apart from an RUC Special Branch Inteligence report and an anonymous letter to 'Chairman Meow's' Dad there doesn't appear to be any evidence against Fr Chesney? No doubt if there was they would have lifted him, but they did not.
Sorry, but are we back in the 70's here where a nod and a wink from a plod was enough to get someone lifed off?
It would appear clear to me that some posters here are letting their hatred of the Catholic Church - or should that be of catholicism in general - cloud their judgement. And please spare me accusations of my backing the church - I was attacking the same institution 30-odd years ago when you were more likely to get a smack in the gob than a round of applause for questioning the sexual predilictions of some priests,
I have no idea whether yer man was up to his oxters in the 'RA. But this Ombudsman's report simply does not add up.
The RUC 'colluded' with the chuirch to 'cover this up'? they did in their bollocks. Is it being seriously suggested that the RUC SB gave a flying fuck about the repercussions of arresting a priest in 1974? Why? Evidence please? 'Political repercussions' didn't stop their colleagues in Coventry arresting, charging and jailing Fr Fell, did it?
Just read an article from Retired bishop Daly (he of the bloodied white hanky on Bloody Sunday) saying much the same. He also speaks of being terrifed and humiliated frequently by cops and brits in south Derry in the early 70's. His dog-collar did not save him from harrassment - it was actually a magnet for it. He also points out that perhaps it might have been a good idea for Cardinal Conway to mention, when he became Bishop of Derry in 1974, that 'one of my priests was a suspected mass murderer'. (of course I was immediately tempted to ask - did he tell you who the fuckin nonces were?, But that is for another day...)
As far back as the late 60's Paisley was blaming papish priests for the IRA. Why would his supporters in the police not blow the whistle? How did they silence them? It is a ridiculous notion to think that a unionist bigot policeman could sity on a 'golden nugget' like this.
Why was Chesney NEVER arrested or questioned, even when he continued to openly cross the border to visit his mother for many years after the awful events in Claudy?
It seems clear that he was a Republican-minded priest. So what? There were enough snivelly little tory bastards amongst his colleagues, so it is natural for one or two to be a little more representative of their congregation, is it not. Of course it is something of a quantum leap from political sympathy to active service, but who knows? It is also clear that both the RUC and the church hierarchy would both like him 'offside' simply because of his political views. So they come up with some old fanny about him being a mad bomber - but we don't want to let on in public. What a lot of old cock. Pity the Cardinal didn't tell the RUC and British government to go and fuck themselves - and to arrest Fr Chesney if they had any evidence.
I'm not saying he was or wasn't involved in what appears to have been an IRA fuck-up at Claudy. But I am saying that this ombudsman's report simply does not make sense.
Sorry, but are we back in the 70's here where a nod and a wink from a plod was enough to get someone lifed off?
It would appear clear to me that some posters here are letting their hatred of the Catholic Church - or should that be of catholicism in general - cloud their judgement. And please spare me accusations of my backing the church - I was attacking the same institution 30-odd years ago when you were more likely to get a smack in the gob than a round of applause for questioning the sexual predilictions of some priests,
I have no idea whether yer man was up to his oxters in the 'RA. But this Ombudsman's report simply does not add up.
The RUC 'colluded' with the chuirch to 'cover this up'? they did in their bollocks. Is it being seriously suggested that the RUC SB gave a flying fuck about the repercussions of arresting a priest in 1974? Why? Evidence please? 'Political repercussions' didn't stop their colleagues in Coventry arresting, charging and jailing Fr Fell, did it?
Just read an article from Retired bishop Daly (he of the bloodied white hanky on Bloody Sunday) saying much the same. He also speaks of being terrifed and humiliated frequently by cops and brits in south Derry in the early 70's. His dog-collar did not save him from harrassment - it was actually a magnet for it. He also points out that perhaps it might have been a good idea for Cardinal Conway to mention, when he became Bishop of Derry in 1974, that 'one of my priests was a suspected mass murderer'. (of course I was immediately tempted to ask - did he tell you who the fuckin nonces were?, But that is for another day...)
As far back as the late 60's Paisley was blaming papish priests for the IRA. Why would his supporters in the police not blow the whistle? How did they silence them? It is a ridiculous notion to think that a unionist bigot policeman could sity on a 'golden nugget' like this.
Why was Chesney NEVER arrested or questioned, even when he continued to openly cross the border to visit his mother for many years after the awful events in Claudy?
It seems clear that he was a Republican-minded priest. So what? There were enough snivelly little tory bastards amongst his colleagues, so it is natural for one or two to be a little more representative of their congregation, is it not. Of course it is something of a quantum leap from political sympathy to active service, but who knows? It is also clear that both the RUC and the church hierarchy would both like him 'offside' simply because of his political views. So they come up with some old fanny about him being a mad bomber - but we don't want to let on in public. What a lot of old cock. Pity the Cardinal didn't tell the RUC and British government to go and fuck themselves - and to arrest Fr Chesney if they had any evidence.
I'm not saying he was or wasn't involved in what appears to have been an IRA fuck-up at Claudy. But I am saying that this ombudsman's report simply does not make sense.
Mrs Magpie
On a bit of break...
How old are you Liam? Just need to know because I lived through those times as a Catholic and I know other people on this thread could be broadly described as such.
Mrs Magpie
On a bit of break...
...are you also saying that what people in the Catholic hierachy wrote and said at the time also doesn't make sense?
Please specify who you are referring to and what they allegedly wrote and said.
For example in yesterday's Irish News, Daly (who is hardly the most prolific spokesman, certainly since his retirement) pours considerable scorn on the "Chesney is a very bad man" 'quote' allegedly from Cardinal Conway. This would appear to be the cops saying, what some NIO bod said, that Willie Whitelaw said, that Conway said... WTF?
Conway alibied a major suspect apparently. So that makes him a bomber? What if the 'suspect' was not involved? What if the 'suspect' (with his part done) then deliberately sought out someone 'respectable' so that when the deed was done he could point out who he was with? There are many questions and Hutchinson's report has muddied rather than cleared the waters.
Didn't his last report (on the McGurks's bar bombing?) have to be withdrawn almost immediately because it contained so many factual errors?
He seems to have gotten around the 'factual errors' thing on this one by not including any facts.
likesfish
You can't park here sir
trying a catholic priest would give the red light to some factions to go on a priest hunting expedition
could imagine how much worse things would get if several catholic priests turned up tortured to death.
especailly as claudy was a sectarian attack with no "military" justification
could imagine how much worse things would get if several catholic priests turned up tortured to death.
especailly as claudy was a sectarian attack with no "military" justification
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
trying a catholic priest would give the red light to some factions to go on a priest hunting expedition
could imagine how much worse things would get if several catholic priests turned up tortured to death.
especailly as claudy was a sectarian attack with no "military" justification
This. If the truth had come out at the time, it would have tipped the province over the edge into a full-on Bosnia type situation. I'm genuinely surprised that some people can't grasp that, nor grasp the fact that the cover-up was the right thing to do in that particular, extraordinary, dreadful circumstance.
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
firstly, CM, I'd like to echo VP's tribute to your da. Top marks to him for coming forward - would there were more journoes like him.So the report on the Claudy bomb is out, and it was the priest what done it. Also the government and RUC knew all about it, and covered it up to prevent further violence. Fucking unreal.
I have a personal interest in this atrocity. I'm from near Claudy, my dad reported on the story in great depth in 1972, and eight years ago in his role as a Derry journalist he received an anonymous letter purporting to be from another priest, saying that Father Chesney had confessed he carried the explosives in his car. Dad went to the cops, and that kicked off this enquiry. Dad was terrified when he came forward with this as he thought he would be setting himself up as a target, which since it was a massive cover up, he was! At least now (some of) the truth has come to light, albeit too late for justice.
What a fucked up place NI is, thank fuck I don't live there any more.
secondly, an idea. How about a poll on this? Summink like "in retrospect, was the coverup over Claudy the right thing for the UK govt to do?"
if you don't I may, purely because i think it coulde make for a terrific debate and thread.
but you have first dibs, by all means.
likesfish
You can't park here sir
idris is right theres a hell of a diffrence between
Just read an article from Retired bishop Daly (he of the bloodied white hanky on Bloody Sunday) saying much the same. He also speaks of being terrifed and humiliated frequently by cops and brits in south Derry in the early 70's. His dog-collar did not save him from harrassment - it was actually a magnet for it. He also points out that perhaps it might have been a good idea for Cardinal Conway to mention, when he became Bishop of Derry in 1974, that 'one of my priests was a suspected mass murderer'. (of course I was immediately tempted to ask - did he tell you who the fuckin nonces were?, But that is for another day...)
and turning up in a ditch missing vital bits
possibly if it had been an attack on the security services he could have been lifted but claudy was purely a sectarian attack.
let justice been done though the heavens fall is all very well.
but if you were in charge would you risk full on ethnic warfare/pogroms burning people out of homes is bad enough burning people in there homes is worse
Just read an article from Retired bishop Daly (he of the bloodied white hanky on Bloody Sunday) saying much the same. He also speaks of being terrifed and humiliated frequently by cops and brits in south Derry in the early 70's. His dog-collar did not save him from harrassment - it was actually a magnet for it. He also points out that perhaps it might have been a good idea for Cardinal Conway to mention, when he became Bishop of Derry in 1974, that 'one of my priests was a suspected mass murderer'. (of course I was immediately tempted to ask - did he tell you who the fuckin nonces were?, But that is for another day...)
and turning up in a ditch missing vital bits
possibly if it had been an attack on the security services he could have been lifted but claudy was purely a sectarian attack.
let justice been done though the heavens fall is all very well.
but if you were in charge would you risk full on ethnic warfare/pogroms burning people out of homes is bad enough burning people in there homes is worse
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
just as well, as it happens to be a crap 'theory' rendered inoperable by the time frames. The idea needs to 'pass on thru' and be somewhere else.
Mrs Magpie
On a bit of break...
Ditto. It was bad enough being Irish or a Catholic in London at that time. I'm glad I wasn't in Northern Ireland. The current general attitude to Muslims at the moment really reminds me of those times although it must be worse as they are more visible.
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
e2a: double post due to PC problems!
trying a catholic priest would give the red light to some factions to go on a priest hunting expedition
Would it? Did not Loyalists believe that many priests were IRA men anyway? Were not priests like Des Wilson, Raymond Murray, even Denis Faul not consistently tarred with this brush?
but claudy was purely a sectarian attack.
Why say this?
Clearly it was a dreadful act - a no-warning car bomb(?) - but why label it sectarian, given that the victims were nearly 50/50 protestant and catholic and it was a mixed village?
likesfish
You can't park here sir
diffrence between beliving priest were IRA men and seeing it in court would also have looked bad internationaly evil brits arrests "man of peace" back in the 1970s the catholic church still had a public reputation to lose
. Whitelaw was trying to get peace talks going so a high profile arrest that may well have given the provos a cash boost/ properganda victory would'nt have helped so claudy mass murder rather than sectarian I apologise although makes it even worse rather than hatred of one group hatred of people who did'nt want to kill there neighbours
krtek a houby
Anger is Hi-NRG
Seconded
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
Not sure about that last bit. There were a lot of hot heads running around in the 26, but at the same time when the balloon went up the Dublin govt asked the army about the possibility of intervening in the 6, and was told that they could probably hold Newry for 24 hours while taking massive casualties. . .
Isn't there just...
even those bastions of virtuous justice, the diplock courts, might demand some shred of EVIDENCE other than "he's definitely a wrong 'un Guv"
would also have looked bad internationaly evil brits arrests "man of peace" back in the 1970s the catholic church still had a public reputation to lose
So your case is that it was covered up to appease the Provisional IRA? This is not only bizarre but completely at odds with the argument put forward in the Report and by most posters here - that it was done to prevent Unionist Paramilitaries from going doolally.
Like I said... this simply does not add up!
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
ermm...no,that's not what Idris or likesfish are saying. they are saying that something as politically and culturally loaded as a catholic priest being arrested - and prolly tried for murder, causing explosions, illegal possession etc. wou,ld have ignited a tinder-keg of passions all round, possibly triggering a fullblown, ramped-up civil war, and playing into the hands of the PIRA< UDA headbanger wing, UVF etc.
Which is quite different to what you suggest they've said.
likesfish
You can't park here sir
The priest got moved under rather dodgy circumstances.
fact is putting him in front of a court would be bad because unionists would go batshit (headbangers would go even more batshit ) leading to a lot more death.
would possibly had a major coup to the ira think catholic countries sending support to the provos etc etc
might even get the irish state invovled.
at least one person claims mcguiness might have been invovled so trying to set up peace talks with one of the major players in jail would'nt have helped.
britsh states plan as such was it to go away
fact is putting him in front of a court would be bad because unionists would go batshit (headbangers would go even more batshit ) leading to a lot more death.
would possibly had a major coup to the ira think catholic countries sending support to the provos etc etc
might even get the irish state invovled.
at least one person claims mcguiness might have been invovled so trying to set up peace talks with one of the major players in jail would'nt have helped.
britsh states plan as such was it to go away
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
>>>might even get the irish state invovled.
It might even have brought down the Irish state. On the plus, my family would have had to stay in Canada, and by now I'd be applying for grants for research into the Dublin Truth and Reconciliation Commission around now.
In between explaining to people that no, I'm not a forensic anthropologist, so I wasn't one of the people who dug up that big mass grave at the foot of Cave hill.
It might even have brought down the Irish state. On the plus, my family would have had to stay in Canada, and by now I'd be applying for grants for research into the Dublin Truth and Reconciliation Commission around now.
In between explaining to people that no, I'm not a forensic anthropologist, so I wasn't one of the people who dug up that big mass grave at the foot of Cave hill.
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