Can there be a revolution in the UK

[tbaldwin]

The Lords reform was needed but I don't trust Blair to do it because he'll just fill it up with his cronies.

But the point is it's still a step in the right direction. It's far more democratic to have Blairs cronies than a load of heridetary peers.

 

[bamboo]

how so? Cos we voted in blair? I didn't vote for him to go to Iraq though.

On the issue of the Lords reform, how does it relate to the way the Supreme Court is set up in the USA?
the lords should be a politically independent institution no politician should appoint lord IMHO.

 

[tbaldwin]

how so? Cos we voted in blair? I didn't vote for him to go to Iraq though.

On the issue of the Lords reform, how does it relate to the way the Supreme Court is set up in the USA?
the lords should be a politically independent institution no politician should appoint lord IMHO.

I agree it would be better to have a directly elected second chamber. But at least one appointed by an elected govt is better than one sleceted by birthright from centuries ago.

 

[scawenb]

I agree it would be better to have a directly elected second chamber. But at least one appointed by an elected govt is better than one sleceted by birthright from centuries ago.

Why?

The hereditories didn't actual make-up a majority and still many of them are still there because of Blair while others have now been made life peers. And why is it better to have lots of failed politicians and self-serving party loyalists rather than people chosen by an accident of birth.


As for Blair as a great reformer - then that could equally be said of Tories like Disraeli and Thatcher with their ideology of Reform, that you may preserve.

There are reforms that do make a real difference to people's lives and they should be supported. But we should not mistake mere change for reform and more than we mistake noise for music.

 

[poster342002]

In answer to the original question...

My prediction is that Britain will one day be the last festering, rancid capitalist nation on Earth.

Long after the rest of the world has gone on to a more just, saner form of organisation Britain will still be there with it's collection of capitalist oligarchs and other parasites.

On the other hand, I think the global ruling classes would sooner nuke their own country/world than allow themsleves to be deposed. There's a very real chance, imo, that they'd blackmail the world with this threat were it looking likely that a revolution were about to succeed and deliver power into the hands of the people.

 

[tbaldwin]

Why?

The hereditories didn't actual make-up a majority and still many of them are still there because of Blair while others have now been made life peers. And why is it better to have lots of failed politicians and self-serving party loyalists rather than people chosen by an accident of birth.


As for Blair as a great reformer - then that could equally be said of Tories like Disraeli and Thatcher with their ideology of Reform, that you may preserve.

There are reforms that do make a real difference to people's lives and they should be supported. But we should not mistake mere change for reform and more than we mistake noise for music.

Better to have party loyalists than people chosen by accident of birth definetely. At least those people have some slither of democratic right.
Blair has done some really positive reforms things like the minimum wage and minimum income guarantee,the educational maintenance allowance etc etc
Despite the massive hype about how different New and Old Labour are the truth is different.

 

[poster342002]

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[scawenb]

Long after the rest of the world has gone on to a more just, saner form of organisation Britain will still be there with it's collection of capitalist oligarchs and other parasites.

And what on earth would these oligarchs and parasites live on?

Where would they get enough food, raw materials, labour, products, machinery, money, etc. etc. etc. to survive?

If from only their own working class then surely they would be forced to rebel and would call on all the liberated states to come to their aid?

Do you really think that we would have the same political climate here if we were the only capitalist country left on the planet? Do you think that the working class here is not going to be radicalise in the face of the increased poverty, repression and oppression as resources and profit from abroad dried-up? If anything Britain would be one of the first to be hit.

As other state fell like dominoes the situation here would change out of all recognition well in advance of Britain managing to survive as the last capitalist state. Britain was the first modern imperialist country and it can no longer survive unless it has other countries to oppress and exploit - any more than capitalist countries could revert back to a feudal economy. The key to the revolution in Britain lies initially with those oppressed countries.

 

[poster342002]

And what on earth would these oligarchs and parasites live on?

Where would they get enough food, raw materials, labour, products, machinery, money, etc. etc. etc. to survive?

If from only their own working class then surely they would be forced to rebel and would call on all the liberated states to come to their aid?

Do you really think that we would have the same political climate here if we were the only capitalist country left on the planet? Do you think that the working class here is not going to be radicalise in the face of the increased poverty, repression and oppression as resources and profit from abroad dried-up? If anything Britain would be one of the first to be hit.

As other state fell like dominoes the situation here would change out of all recognition well in advance of Britain managing to survive as the last capitalist state. Britain was the first modern imperialist country and it can no longer survive unless it has other countries to oppress and exploit - any more than capitalist countries could revert back to a feudal economy. The key to the revolution in Britain lies initially with those oppressed countries.

I think we'd have a UK that resembled the current state of North Korea - an entrenched ruling elite that holds on to power through sheer brute-force and brainwashing despite the hideous deprivation suffered by the masses.

The UK ruling class is already the most entrenched and secure of perhaps all the ruling classes - I see no reason why everyone would suddenly wake up and smell the coffee nomatter whatwas going on in other countries ("but they're foreigners, aren't they?" would be the common refrain).

 

[scawenb]

I think we'd have a UK that resembled the current state of North Korea - an entrenched ruling elite that holds on to power through sheer brute-force and brainwashing despite the hideous deprivation suffered by the masses.

The UK ruling class is already the most entrenched and secure of perhaps all the ruling classes - I see no reason why everyone would suddenly wake up and smell the coffee nomatter whatwas going on in other countries ("but they're foreigners, aren't they?" would be the common refrain).

It is not the example of foreigners that I meant it is the that British capitalism could not survive the flow of super-profit and the supply of goods and raw materials from elsewhere. North Korea and Albania were not capitalist or imperialist economies and they spend decades attempting to create a self-sufficient economy. It is still difficult to know how much support and "brainwashing" went on. Certainly until the recent crop failures it was South Koreans who were attempting to go North. It was also only possible because they were able to build such a peculiar economy while being protected by their neighbours.

Also when you say Britian do you really mean England and if so do you mean all of England?

 

[poster342002]

It is not the example of foreigners that I meant it is the that British capitalism could not survive the flow of super-profit and the supply of goods and raw materials from elsewhere. North Korea and Albania were not capitalist or imperialist economies and they spend decades attempting to create a self-sufficient economy. It is still difficult to know how much support and "brainwashing" went on. Certainly until the recent crop failures it was South Koreans who were attempting to go North. It was also only possible because they were able to build such a peculiar economy while being protected by their neighbours.

Also when you say Britian do you really mean England and if so do you mean all of England?

I generally meant the whole of Britain, but having said that I could perhaps see Scotland having a revolution and managing to break away.

The analogy with North Korea was that I was trying to show how it is possible for an isolated ruling class to cling on to power when all round it have abandoned it. Britain would end up in a similar situation - a nasty, vindictive ruling class staying in exiistance through manic determination at all costs - even threatening the use of nukes against the people if they looked like rising up. The UK ruling class is perhaps one of the longest-lived in the world - we have had no real revolution which has swapped one ruling class with another as such. They would probably never surrender - they'd have too much to lose. They'd sooner drag the world down in flames than be deposed.

 

[KLAAR]

If your going to have a revo make it snappy ive got to swill out the student bogs.

 

[scawenb]

The ruling class is not some devilish cabal of meglomanics conspiring to keep down the oppressed - the ruling class is a product of a certain economic system creates one. They can be a nice a group of human being as you could ever meet but the neccessities of the market force them into certain actions and the market change so the ruling class changes.

There are no English Aristocratic families left that were not created by the Tudors (and down forget they were just bunch of Welsh famers), the lollards and the reformation had a profound effect on the country over night, the civil war may seem insignificant to you but it had profound effects on the redisribution of land and power and the restoration was a monarch in name only, from Captain Swing to Peterloo and the Chartists had profound effect here and around the world as did the suffragette movement (where even middle class women destroyed property, suffered imprisonment and force-feeding and even death), the fight against fascism and the great unemployed worker hunger marches all show that this country is not a passive and unchanging as you try to make out.

 

[poster342002]

The ruling class is not some devilish cabal of meglomanics conspiring to keep down the oppressed - the ruling class is a product of a certain economic system creates one. They can be a nice a group of human being as you could ever meet but the neccessities of the market force them into certain actions and the market change so the ruling class changes.

There are no English Aristocratic families left that were not created by the Tudors (and down forget they were just bunch of Welsh famers), the lollards and the reformation had a profound effect on the country over night, the civil war may seem insignificant to you but it had profound effects on the redisribution of land and power and the restoration was a monarch in name only, from Captain Swing to Peterloo and the Chartists had profound effect here and around the world as did the suffragette movement (where even middle class women destroyed property, suffered imprisonment and force-feeding and even death), the fight against fascism and the great unemployed worker hunger marches all show that this country is not a passive and unchanging as you try to make out.

But all that is, relatively, a long time ago when you compare more recent class struggles throughout the rest of the world (even other 1st world areas such as western europe).

Whilst the ruling classes are a product of the system, I would also say they are quite enthusiastic about maintaining it (at all costs) seeing as it has placed them in such a wealthy and powerful position. I suspect they'd stoop to just about anything - nomatter how appaling - to maintain it.

 

[tbaldwin]

Social change is most likely to come about if left wing organisations turn away from elitism and towards the views and aspirations of ordinary people. The Left as it stands is a obstacle towards social change.