campaign against welfare cuts and poverty

[Awesome Wells]

you do know what hypothetical means don't you? especially after using the word

so predicting is ok with you, on the off chance it will be better.
i know you are notoriously difficult to get through to but try it like this then
party A are in power and have a nasty policy
party B says they will get rid of nasty policy when they get power, so you'll vote for them to get rid of nasty policy, job done
party A now say, oh we'll get rid of nasty policy tomorrow, that should do it. will you vote for us now?


A and B are interchangeable and could be any political persuasion

Thank you, I know what the word means.

prediction is all we can do as we are incapable of clairvoyance. what better method can you suggest, anything?

i am not being difficult with you so you can stop spitting your dummy out, i have answered your question and explained why your hypotehtical scenario is pointless. I also said that I won't be pressed on it. What you are now doing is trolling.

 

[ddraig]

Thank you, I know what the word means.

prediction is all we can do as we are incapable of clairvoyance. what better method can you suggest, anything?

i am not being difficult with you so you can stop spitting your dummy out, i have answered your question and explained why your hypotehtical scenario is pointless. I also said that I won't be pressed on it. What you are now doing is trolling.

no, no you haven't
sad that you can't see it
you are indeed a waste of time, try reading more and posting less, better for you, better for these threads

 

[Pickman's model]

prediction is all we can do as we are incapable of clairvoyance.

how many of you are there?

 

[Awesome Wells]

no, no you haven't
sad that you can't see it
you are indeed a waste of time, try reading more and posting less, better for you, better for these threads

And i'll ask you again. Why will it be better. As usual none of you can explain your position.

I've explained mine, and I'll do it again: the tories won't repeal the bedroom tax. your question is pointless. I also went on to say, as you clearly can't read, that labour will not be as bad as the tories. you have yet to establish how they will and, like the rest of the muppets on here, assume that also means that I think labour are faultless.

There is nothing to see: labour or the tories will win next year. So you either help one or help the other. That's the system. Do i like it? No, as i have said - and it's sad that I have to repeat myself to morons incapable of making the effort of reading the people they constantly patronise and slag off.

Even minor improvements are better than what we have now when there is very good reason to think that another tory government will make things worse - especially if they aren't in coalition. in the next 5 years we could see the NHS gone completely, the welfare state gone completely. Either you support that or you don't. Playing silly games around hypothetical questions based on pie in the sky assumptions is time i won't waste.

 

[ViolentPanda]

blah blah blah

Butchersapron is absolutely correct in his analysis, so all that your "blah blah blah" dismissal does is mark you as politically ignorant.

 

[Pickman's model]

Playing silly games around hypothetical questions based on pie in the sky assumptions is time i won't waste.

if only that were true

 

[BigTom]

blah blah blah

Labour introduced Lord Freud, workfare, ESA/the WCA/ATOS, increased benefit sanctions, voted for the retroactive sanctions bill, support workfare, bedroom tax (though now backtracked), benefits cap, they want to introduce a total cap on the benefits bill, they introduced the Local Housing Allowance which does the same thing as the bedroom tax in the private sector. Liam Byrne is as much of a cunt as IDS but even if he wasn't he'd still be doing the same things - or rather, if he wasn't a cunt he wouldn't have become shadow and come 2015 actual DWP minister.
What Butcher's said is spot on, please read it again. Let's spend our time talking, proposing and doing things that might actually shift the terrain, not fucking voting for another bunch of neo-liberal cockwombles to come in and continue to fuck us all over.

 

[Pickman's model]

Labour introduced Lord Freud, workfare, ESA/the WCA/ATOS, increased benefit sanctions, voted for the retroactive sanctions bill, support workfare, bedroom tax (though now backtracked), benefits cap, they want to introduce a total cap on the benefits bill, they introduced the Local Housing Allowance which does the same thing as the bedroom tax in the private sector. Liam Byrne is as much of a cunt as IDS but even if he wasn't he'd still be doing the same things - or rather, if he wasn't a cunt he wouldn't have become shadow and come 2015 actual DWP minister.
What Butcher's said is spot on, please read it again. Let's spend our time talking, proposing and doing things that might actually shift the terrain, not fucking voting for another bunch of neo-liberal cockwombles to come in and continue to fuck us all over.

you'll be wished a painful death now by 'bo' wells

 

[Awesome Wells]

Labour introduced Lord Freud, workfare, ESA/the WCA/ATOS, increased benefit sanctions, voted for the retroactive sanctions bill, support workfare, bedroom tax (though now backtracked), benefits cap, they want to introduce a total cap on the benefits bill, they introduced the Local Housing Allowance which does the same thing as the bedroom tax in the private sector. Liam Byrne is as much of a cunt as IDS but even if he wasn't he'd still be doing the same things - or rather, if he wasn't a cunt he wouldn't have become shadow and come 2015 actual DWP minister.
What Butcher's said is spot on, please read it again. Let's spend our time talking, proposing and doing things that might actually shift the terrain, not fucking voting for another bunch of neo-liberal cockwombles to come in and continue to fuck us all over.

Sorry, you actually believe, despite everything i've posted on this forum, that I didn't know Labour did these things?

Is that really how you want discussion to proceed, constantly assuming the worst about whom you are talking to? How utterly bloody stupid is that?

And so what? We can't change the past so what good does it do raking this shit up over and over. All you are doing is hobbling yourself repeatedly with the end result being that the tories remain in power - possibly as a majority government. God alone knows how bad things will be then.

I am not interesed in anything butchers cunt says; he is a nasty bullying piece of shit who has been supported by people like you and the admins in his behaviour for too long. I have zero interest in his tedious shit having been victim blamed (ironic on this site whic claims to argue for things like feminist justice) when reporting his behaviour.

I have also repeatedly invited people to provide exactly the solutions you now call for. Insead I just get more condescension and abuse. The hypocrisy on this site is breathtaking. Unfortunately however you miss the point: we either vote for labour or we get a tory governemtn. That's the only choce that exists right now. I am all for a better system, but that's not going to happen in 6 months, so for now the priority has to be staunching the flow of blood from the open wound caused by the current government. They have to go.

 

[ViolentPanda]

As ever, Wells is talking shit. He talks so much of it, the poor little victim (note how he's set himself up as a martyr to bullying?) that he should change his username to Arsehole Wells.

 

[8115]

The internet hardmen are out in force this week

 

[StoneRoad]

Personally, I think one of the reasons why the DWP (& other gov't) policies don't change very much any more is that the policies are largely devised and implemented by the same "civil servants" and at the upper levels these people don't change - they are interested in maintaining their level above the rest of us ! (of course, "Yes, Minister" was poking fun at this, but from personal knowledge it was quite close to the truth)

 

[Pickman's model]

As ever, Wells is talking shit. He talks so much of it, the poor little victim (note how he's set himself up as a martyr to bullying?) that he should change his username to Arsehole Wells.

'bo' wells

 

[ViolentPanda]

Personally, I think one of the reasons why the DWP (& other gov't) policies don't change very much any more is that the policies are largely devised and implemented by the same "civil servants" and at the upper levels these people don't change - they are interested in maintaining their level above the rest of us ! (of course, "Yes, Minister" was poking fun at this, but from personal knowledge it was quite close to the truth)

Senior CSs are much as you characterise, and what they want is continuity. They actually dislike "radical" policies such as Iain Dunked-in Shit has actioned, because not only do they make waves in the department, butoutside the department too.

 

[Awesome Wells]

The internet hardmen are out in force this week

There's nothing hard about being a bully, especially in an environment that condones it.

 

[Awesome Wells]

As ever, Wells is talking shit. He talks so much of it, the poor little victim (note how he's set himself up as a martyr to bullying?) that he should change his username to Arsehole Wells.

Then explain what is wrong with what i say. Which you can't, and have never done. You are just a coward.

 

[BigTom]

Sorry, you actually believe, despite everything i've posted on this forum, that I didn't know Labour did these things?

Is that really how you want discussion to proceed, constantly assuming the worst about whom you are talking to? How utterly bloody stupid is that?

And so what? We can't change the past so what good does it do raking this shit up over and over. All you are doing is hobbling yourself repeatedly with the end result being that the tories remain in power - possibly as a majority government. God alone knows how bad things will be then.

I am not interesed in anything butchers cunt says; he is a nasty bullying piece of shit who has been supported by people like you and the admins in his behaviour for too long. I have zero interest in his tedious shit having been victim blamed (ironic on this site whic claims to argue for things like feminist justice) when reporting his behaviour.

I have also repeatedly invited people to provide exactly the solutions you now call for. Insead I just get more condescension and abuse. The hypocrisy on this site is breathtaking. Unfortunately however you miss the point: we either vote for labour or we get a tory governemtn. That's the only choce that exists right now. I am all for a better system, but that's not going to happen in 6 months, so for now the priority has to be staunching the flow of blood from the open wound caused by the current government. They have to go.

I just don't understand how, knowing these things, you can actively call for a Labour government. The past behaviour of people/organisations is kind of key to judging what their future behaviour is, surely?

And iirc when people have suggested things to you in the past - like community organising, like claimant's unions, like IWW, Unite Community, like anything that builds against the individualistic neo-liberal thatcherite ways of considering, you've just gone, yeah but but we must vote labour,which supports a neo-liberal organisation and builds towards the thing we need to build against. It's like saying let's paddle more slowly towards that waterfall instead of paddling away from it, or sideways.

 

[Awesome Wells]

I just don't understand how, knowing these things, you can actively call for a Labour government. The past behaviour of people/organisations is kind of key to judging what their future behaviour is, surely?

And iirc when people have suggested things to you in the past - like community organising, like claimant's unions, like IWW, Unite Community, like anything that builds against the individualistic neo-liberal thatcherite ways of considering, you've just gone, yeah but but we must vote labour,which supports a neo-liberal organisation and builds towards the thing we need to build against. It's like saying let's paddle more slowly towards that waterfall instead of paddling away from it, or sideways.

If you don't understand that's because you haven't actually read what I've said. This sort of inteelectual laziness is rife on here.

Again: there are only two outcomes next year. Labour or Tory - irrespective of what you do or how you vote, if at all. So the choice is yours: tory or labour. It's not much of a choice I grant you, but the problem you and the bully brigade are having is that you think by calling for a labour vote i'm endorsing the labour party entirely along with all their politicians and policies. You seem to think that I'm endorsing all the bad decisions they've made. If that's how you think, if you are as prejudiced as the rest of the people who haunt my every post with their silly abuse, think then I can't help you because you will not and are not listening.

Even a change in government would be better than 5 more years of the tories. At the very least that, if nothing else, it will be a relief and that will spur people on, even if only marginally, to work for even greater change. We aren't going to get a better fairer system in 6 months and, as i've said before, i'm not talking long term. I'm talking here and now: general election 2015.

If you don't agree, then please follow your own advice and offer an alterantive. I have asked that of people repeatedly on here and, predictably, I get a load of shit flung my way (by people who bitch and whine when they get a taste of their own medicine). I am quite open to that discussion, unfortunately noone else here has so far proven to be likewise. They expect everyone to conform to their intransigence and their opinions and when they don't they misrepresent what they say and bullshit about them.

 

[butchersapron]

I just don't understand how, knowing these things, you can actively call for a Labour government. The past behaviour of people/organisations is kind of key to judging what their future behaviour is, surely?

And iirc when people have suggested things to you in the past - like community organising, like claimant's unions, like IWW, Unite Community, like anything that builds against the individualistic neo-liberal thatcherite ways of considering, you've just gone, yeah but but we must vote labour,which supports a neo-liberal organisation and builds towards the thing we need to build against. It's like saying let's paddle more slowly towards that waterfall instead of paddling away from it, or sideways.

Don't wasted your time Tom. he won't do a damn thing to help himself or - more importantly for this thread - others. The board is littered with him asking for advice and help and him turning the helpful well-intentioned responses he gets into bullying attacks on himself. Not worth it. His life will pass him by.

 

[Awesome Wells]

Don't wasted your time Tom. he won't do a damn thing to help himself or - more importantly for this thread - others. The board is littered with him asking for advice and help and him turning the helpful well-intentioned responses he gets into bullying attacks on himself. Not worth it. His life will pass him by.

It is not for you to tell other people how to 'waste' their time.

This board is not littered with anything of the kind. You are just a nasty cowardly bully. That's all you are and when i gave you a taste of your own nastiness you pissed your pants. All you have ever done is follow me around bullying me. I've asked you repeatedly to stop and you have ignored me. What gives you the right to treat other people like this? Who the hell do you think you are? You are in no position to sit in judgement of anyone, never mind me.

This is not a thread asking for help nor is it a threat requesting help. To sit there and insinuate that I never help others is disgusting. You have no idea what I do for anyone or anything, you have no idea what I do, period. All you have ever done is sit and dig up posts from 2008/9, from 4 years before I started posting on here - all just to smear me, right from the off. You weren't even interestedin an honest dialogue. You are a gutless, sad little coward and you have absolutely no justification for the way you treat me. I don't give a shit if you're Mother Theresa, your behaviour is utterly beyond the pale.

 

[BigTom]

If you don't agree, then please follow your own advice and offer an alterantive. I have asked that of people repeatedly on here and, predictably, I get a load of shit flung my way (by people who bitch and whine when they get a taste of their own medicine). I am quite open to that discussion, unfortunately noone else here has so far proven to be likewise. They expect everyone to conform to their intransigence and their opinions and when they don't they misrepresent what they say and bullshit about them.

I just offered you a string of alternatives in my last post and you've ignored them. So with that, I'm going to agree with Butcher's, I'm out of this conversation.

 

[Awesome Wells]

No I don't think you are endorsing the whole of the labour party but you will get it all whether you like it or not, that is what you are supporting and calling for.
Even a change in government would be better than 5 more years of the tories. At the very least that, if nothing else, it will be a relief and that will spur people on, even if only marginally, to work for even greater change. We aren't going to get a better fairer system in 6 months and, as i've said before, i'm not talking long term. I'm talking here and now: general election 2015.

and then you'll be talking about 2020 after that, then 2025 and so on.



I just offered you a string of alternatives in my last post and you've ignored them. So with that, I'm going to agree with Butcher's, I'm out of this conversation.

So you're another coward then? Rather than wait to hear what the person you're talking say you chucl your toys out the pram?


I'm well aware that we will get ALL of the labour party if we vote for them, why would you think otherwise? But it is either that or the tory party. So the question is which is the lesser of two evils given that there are no other choices.

Speculating about what I might say in 5 years time is just trolling. You are in no position to make that assumption as i have said that in the meantime, as well as dealing with 2015, we need to work toward a better outcome so we aren't in this situation in 2020. I've made that point before. We don't have the opportunity to do that in 2015. I wish that were different; it is not.

And iirc when people have suggested things to you in the past - like community organising, like claimant's unions, like IWW, Unite Community, like anything that builds against the individualistic neo-liberal thatcherite ways of considering, you've just gone, yeah but but we must vote labour,which supports a neo-liberal organisation and builds towards the thing we need to build against. It's like saying let's paddle more slowly towards that waterfall instead of paddling away from it, or sideways.

And that is exactly what I mean by building for a better outcome.

It's also why i joined the Socialist Party (bristol south division apparently) last year.

Again you are assuming that calling for a labour vote next year = endorsing their neo liberal values.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Then explain what is wrong with what i say. Which you can't, and have never done. You are just a coward.

If I'm a "coward", then you're (as I'm sure many posters are already aware) a liar. I've explained to you several times, on this thread and others, why your " vote Labour with no illusions" [l]schtick[/I] (that's my paraphrase of your argument, by the way, something I thought I'd make clear before you started whining about how you'd never said that) is bankrupt.

 

[butchersapron]

It's also why i joined the Socialist Party (bristol south division apparently) last year.

Again you are assuming that calling for a labour vote next year = endorsing their neo liberal values.

Astonishing - that's the SP in bristol who are part of the backbone of Badaca (Bristol and District Anti-Cuts Alliance) who i invited you to get organised with and introduce you to people from it but you said they were all leftie cunts who wanted to attack labour and so damaging the main thing - which is getting labour elected. Doesn't sound like you've actually made any of your parties meeting yet if you're not sure which branch you're in and you're arguing stuff directly opposed to what your party believes.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I just don't understand how, knowing these things, you can actively call for a Labour government. The past behaviour of people/organisations is kind of key to judging what their future behaviour is, surely?

And iirc when people have suggested things to you in the past - like community organising, like claimant's unions, like IWW, Unite Community, like anything that builds against the individualistic neo-liberal thatcherite ways of considering, you've just gone, yeah but but we must vote labour,which supports a neo-liberal organisation and builds towards the thing we need to build against. It's like saying let's paddle more slowly towards that waterfall instead of paddling away from it, or sideways.

It seems to me that the answer to how he can call for a Labour govt is constructed around two central pillars - a belief (unsupported by actions on Labour's part except a not-quite-promise re the bedroom tax) that Labour will be different to the Tories, and his own need to believe he's "doing something", even if the " doing something" is hawking bankrupt politics and politicians as a solution to which they're actually the problem.

 

[andysays]

So you're another coward then? Rather than wait to hear what the person you're talking say you chucl your toys out the pram?

I'm well aware that we will get ALL of the labour party if we vote for them, why would you think otherwise? But it is either that or the tory party. So the question is which is the lesser of two evils given that there are no other choices.

Speculating about what I might say in 5 years time is just trolling. You are in no position to make that assumption as i have said that in the meantime, as well as dealing with 2015, we need to work toward a better outcome so we aren't in this situation in 2020. I've made that point before. We don't have the opportunity to do that in 2015. I wish that were different; it is not.

And that is exactly what I mean by building for a better outcome.

It's also why i joined the Socialist Party (bristol south division apparently) last year.

Again you are assuming that calling for a labour vote next year = endorsing their neo liberal values.

You're asserting that Labour is the lesser of two evils; others are suggesting (and actually arguing, you know, with substantive points and shit) that there is nothing significant between them.

And can you clarify if "Vote Labour with Substantial Illusions" is the new SP slogan at national level, just in Bristol South, or is it something you've dreamt up for yourself?

 

[BigTom]

So you're another coward then? Rather than wait to hear what the person you're talking say you chucl your toys out the pram?

I actually edited my post before seeing your reply because I thought it was shitty to end a conversation without giving someone a chance to respond, I'm only back now because you've decided you do want to talk about the alternative suggestions you've ignored before. I don't know why you want to accuse me of cowardice when I've had to prod you into a conversation you claim to want to have.

I'm well aware that we will get ALL of the labour party if we vote for them, why would you think otherwise? But it is either that or the tory party. So the question is which is the lesser of two evils given that there are no other choices.

Speculating about what I might say in 5 years time is just trolling. You are in no position to make that assumption as i have said that in the meantime, as well as dealing with 2015, we need to work toward a better outcome so we aren't in this situation in 2020. I've made that point before. We don't have the opportunity to do that in 2015. I wish that were different; it is not.

And that is exactly what I mean by building for a better outcome.

It's also why i joined the Socialist Party (bristol south division apparently) last year.

Again you are assuming that calling for a labour vote next year = endorsing their neo liberal values.

Last line, nope, I've explicitly said I don't in the edited post you quoted. I've said that calling for a labour vote = getting their neo-liberal values.

Now about those alternatives, why not talk about what you/SP are doing locally to campaign against welfare cuts and poverty, what has worked, what hasn't, what the strategy is, how do the activities you are doing fit tactically with the overall strategy. We've had some really productive conversations on here in the past about workfare campaigning and sanctions stuff as well as more generally about the broader picture wrt neo-liberalism & capitalism.

 

[Awesome Wells]

Now about those alternatives, why not talk about what you/SP are doing locally to campaign against welfare cuts and poverty, what has worked, what hasn't, what the strategy is, how do the activities you are doing fit tactically with the overall strategy. We've had some really productive conversations on here in the past about workfare campaigning and sanctions stuff as well as more generally about the broader picture wrt neo-liberalism & capitalism.

We can talk about all sorts of things, however the point at hand is the general election and barring unforeseen circumstances, the only choices in 2015 are Labour or Tory. That is the point I'm trying to make. If at the very least a change in government to labour (who else could it be?) means the load is lightened while we campaign, however and about whatever, then surely that is better than bemoaning the loss of the labour of old while IDS gets back into power and things get even worse at the DWP - and who would disagree about that?

I'm more than happy to campaign against the capitalist system that is clearly not working that has utterly failed us. I've raised issues with my (tory) MP and used social media where possible. It's not a huge amount but it's better than nothing. I agree entirely that claimants need wider representation, the unions are as much a failure as Labour seems to be (where are the PCS while advisers, some of hwom must be members, sanction people). But i have not the faintest idea how something like that could be set up. I don't live in the big city, certainly not London, so my options are limited.

But the fundamental point remains: do you think a tory government from 2015 will be better than Labour? Some on here actually believe this. I do not. I think that to be a ridiculous statement: while Labour have done some shit things, which noone denies, they took 13 years. We've had 4 years of what might be described a dilute Tory vision (ie they are nominally in coalition) and just look at the damage they have wrought by comparison.

 

[Awesome Wells]

You're asserting that Labour is the lesser of two evils; others are suggesting (and actually arguing, you know, with substantive points and shit) that there is nothing significant between them.

And can you clarify if "Vote Labour with Substantial Illusions" is the new SP slogan at national level, just in Bristol South, or is it something you've dreamt up for yourself?

There are differences, small but significant. For example: Labour has pledged to repeal the Health and Social Care bill as well as the BT. That promise alone is more than we have from the tories. If the argument is that there's no point investing in that promise because they will break it then you might as well just stick your head up your arse and forget it because we won't get anywhere. We don't know if they will - they might, anything's possible - but that is still better than nothing. That is the point.

Why on earth would you think that quote you've just dreamed up is anything to do with the SP?

 

[Awesome Wells]

Astonishing - that's the SP in bristol who are part of the backbone of Badaca (Bristol and District Anti-Cuts Alliance) who i invited you to get organised with and introduce you to people from it but you said they were all leftie cunts who wanted to attack labour and so damaging the main thing - which is getting labour elected. Doesn't sound like you've actually made any of your parties meeting yet if you're not sure which branch you're in and you're arguing stuff directly opposed to what your party believes.

The only thing that's astonishing is how you continue to believe I have any interest in the shit that comes out of your keyboard, and why the moderators on this forum think it acceptable to allow you to bully other users. You continue to reply to me in the mistaken belief that you think you're entitled to any respect when you show absolutely none in return.

You have never invited me to do anything. Nothing pleasant anyway. From the very first interaction with me since i started posting last November tyou have been throughly unpleasant. In fact I even thought your first post was an attempt at being friendly which is why I responded in kind, only to find out it was you digging up shit from 4 years earlier just to dig at me and that's all you've done since. Now it seems you're utterly delusional.

And if you are a member of that party i'll be handing my membeship card back. I wont' even share the same platform as scum like you.