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campaign against welfare cuts and poverty

I don't know why you want to accuse me of cowardice when I've had to prod you into a conversation you claim to want to have.

I was already having the conversation, i've no idea what you are talking about. I missed that part of your post which is why i went back and responded to it. The reason I missed it is because i have piss poor eyesight when it comes to reading off screens; my eyes don't focus properly.

I also didn't accuse you of cowardice, i accused violentpanda who , along with his partner, decided, out of the blue in another discussion, to become nasty for no reason.
 
There are differences, small but significant. For example: Labour has pledged to repeal the Health and Social Care bill as well as the BT. That promise alone is more than we have from the tories. If the argument is that there's no point investing in that promise because they will break it then you might as well just stick your head up your arse and forget it because we won't get anywhere. We don't know if they will - they might, anything's possible - but that is still better than nothing. That is the point.

Why on earth would you think that quote you've just dreamed up is anything to do with the SP?

The quote is a pastiche of the SWP quote "Vote Labour with No Illusions" I would have thought that was obvious to everyone reading this thread. It also seems to me to be a pretty good summary of your position, so I was wondering if you'd got it off your alleged new friends the SP or dreamt it up yourself.

And as far as Labour promises go...

 
We can talk about all sorts of things, however the point at hand is the general election

So you don't want to talk about alternatives then, ok, no probs, I've no interest in talking about electoral stuff, it doesn't fit into what I see as the strategy to improving things wrt social security & poverty, at least not while the "choice" is between two neo-liberal parties.
 
Possibly because I am old and stupid, but I feel impaled on the horns of a dilemma since it seems, as far as parliamentary democracy goes, the only game in town still revolves around the 2 parties, Labour/Tory. While I can see that a: politicians have limited power since they are mere puppets for a wider invisible corporate ownership of power and b: there are few substantive differences between them, this leaves me feeling that a non-vote is my only option...and yet, this is reprehensible, indeed, almost impossible to willingly disenfranchise myself further by destroying a ballot paper or simply not bothering. I do feel horror at the prospect of another 5 years of Tory rule if only because a win might seem to give them a greater mandate to continue on their vicious course.

So, do we disengage from the fiasco of Westminster politics and simply work on a personal local agenda - community activism and so forth? Less than a century after women have died to secure a vote, a refusal to participate seems simply wrong and yet, here we are, arguing ourselves into oblivion. I have no idea how a Labour partywill 'govern' but since I have been living under a Tory yoke for the last few years, I do have a very clear belief that I do NOT wish for more of their vile neo-liberal, one-sided rule.
 
So you don't want to talk about alternatives then, ok, no probs, I've no interest in talking about electoral stuff, it doesn't fit into what I see as the strategy to improving things wrt social security & poverty, at least not while the "choice" is between two neo-liberal parties.

I never said i didn't want to talk about alternatives at all.

But we can't get very far if the tories remain in power. There will just be massive amounts of divide and rule which will hamper grassroots efforts from becoming powerful enough to force a change.
 
So, do we disengage from the fiasco of Westminster politics and simply work on a personal local agenda - community activism and so forth? Less than a century after women have died to secure a vote, a refusal to participate seems simply wrong and yet, here we are, arguing ourselves into oblivion. I have no idea how a Labour partywill 'govern' but since I have been living under a Tory yoke for the last few years, I do have a very clear belief that I do NOT wish for more of their vile neo-liberal, one-sided rule.

Yes. Westminster politics will only be responsive when there are stronger pressures on it from communities than from capital and at this point in time we've got 40 odd years of attacks on our communities to row back on before we can even get to the social democracy we had after wwII. At this point it seems like we're going to lose everything we won in the 20th century, because the communities and organisations that were able to put pressure on capital to gain a larger share of our production have been fucked on so badly. They need to be rebuilt. Thatcher's project to change the soul through economics has been very successful imo.

Women winning the vote was part of a different thing, and in terms of helping bring about gender equality it was a good tactic at the time, and a valuable victory, but that doesn't mean that we should always see voting as a useful tactic at all times and places.

Tory, Labour. Both vile neo-liberal one-sided parties. Nobody else is going to win so talking of other parties seems pointless. What is the strategy (wrt poverty/social security campaigning) that finds the tactic of voting labour into power a useful tactic?
 
The quote is a pastiche of the SWP quote "Vote Labour with No Illusions" I would have thought that was obvious to everyone reading this thread. It also seems to me to be a pretty good summary of your position, so I was wondering if you'd got it off your alleged new friends the SP or dreamt it up yourself.

And as far as Labour promises go...


As far as labour promises go.... what? A clip from a shit band?

Great.

"your alleged new friends"?
 
As far as labour promises go.... what? A clip from a shit band?

Great.

"your alleged new friends"?

Maybe you can see the significance of the lyrics to what we're discussing, maybe you can't

And anyone who says the Buzzcocks were shit clearly has no idea about anything, just confirms what we already knew
 
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Maybe you can see the significance of the lyrics to what we're discussing, maybe you can't







And anyone who says the Buzzcocks were shit clearly has no idea about anything, just confirms what we already knew
I've no idea what you think you already knew, or who 'we' refers to. Are you a collective? Are you the Borg?

I don't care about your video clip. It's a snide way of communicating.
 
Great - another thread made AWESOME.
fuck off then.
2309444-theres_the_door_now_get_the______out.jpg

DrDHpWN.gif
 
So here's what we've learned today - videos are a snide way of communicating, but Star Trek memes and Sherlock gifs are where it's at.

These internet rules are proper confusing :confused:
 
So here's what we've learned today - videos are a snide way of communicating, but Star Trek memes and Sherlock gifs are where it's at.

These internet rules are proper confusing :confused:
No i think the point I was making was quite clear with the words "fuck off then".

Yours wasn't. It was deliberately obscured within a video by a shit band.

The gifs were simply icing on a cake for the benefit of a twat.

So in conclusion: i don't give a toss.
 
Fan
tas
tic

You think i better leave.

You won't win this game. Don't play it.
That you think bullying people and lying about what they have said is a game demonstrates what a sad little man you are. Again: if you are involved with the SP in Bristol, you've cost them a member.
 
So bullied people should roll over while the majority victim blame?

Given the attitude of some of the people in this thread and their contribution to the threads about gamergate/feminism that is, to put it kindly, ironic.
 
Big socialist party quiz - jan (that's how slow they are) -stag and hounds? Up for it?
Did you think I was joking?

I won't be sharing a platform with someone who behaves in the woodsy way to another add you do , on our offline. As you're obviously a member I will be handing in my card and they can decide what to do about it, if anything.

You seem to find no fault in the fact you're a bully and think it's all a joke, I don't. Never mind your nasty little smear yesterday.
 
Possibly because I am old and stupid, but I feel impaled on the horns of a dilemma since it seems, as far as parliamentary democracy goes, the only game in town still revolves around the 2 parties, Labour/Tory. While I can see that a: politicians have limited power since they are mere puppets for a wider invisible corporate ownership of power and b: there are few substantive differences between them, this leaves me feeling that a non-vote is my only option...and yet, this is reprehensible, indeed, almost impossible to willingly disenfranchise myself further by destroying a ballot paper or simply not bothering. I do feel horror at the prospect of another 5 years of Tory rule if only because a win might seem to give them a greater mandate to continue on their vicious course.

So, do we disengage from the fiasco of Westminster politics and simply work on a personal local agenda - community activism and so forth? Less than a century after women have died to secure a vote, a refusal to participate seems simply wrong and yet, here we are, arguing ourselves into oblivion. I have no idea how a Labour partywill 'govern' but since I have been living under a Tory yoke for the last few years, I do have a very clear belief that I do NOT wish for more of their vile neo-liberal, one-sided rule.

Your mention of suffrage brings to mind the fact that the polity back, as well as the influence the electorate (local and national) could exert, is vastly different. In the '20s and '30s, arguably up till the '70s, one could exercise a degree of control over local situations at least through membership of the mainstream parties, and over your local authority. That's gone now. Belonging to a constituency party means rubber-stamping council ward slates and the selection committee's choice of MP. It's about putting people in place who have the best interests of the party at heart, while back when we actually had some power within the local parties, it was about electing people constituencies and especially to wards who had the interests of their electorate at heart.
People are demotivated at least partially by the fact that their vote is meaningless in terms of actually controlling what happens on a local or a national scale - why bother to vote when all your vote does is rubber-stamp some ruling class cuntwipe's "right" to exert power over you?
 
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