British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

[Brainaddict]

So I'm interested, if in the future we find this current cabinet collectively responsible for, say, crimes against humanity for selling arms to Saudi Arabia - a move that I would consider reasonable and just but feel free to imagine other crimes if you think that unreasonable - is it okay if we just imprison the others for a few years, but revoke Sajid Javid's citizenship while he's out the country on the grounds that really he's Pakistani? Just trying to get this straight.

 

[Pickman's model]

So I'm interested, if in the future we find this current cabinet collectively responsible for, say, crimes against humanity for selling arms to Saudi Arabia - a move that I would consider reasonable and just but feel free to imagine other crimes if you think that unreasonable - is it okay if we just imprison the others for a few years, but revoke Sajid Javid's citizenship while he's out the country on the grounds that really he's Pakistani? Just trying to get this straight.

no. they'll all be bound for the grytviken - buenos aires friendship bridge dual nationality or not

 

[newbie]

So I'm interested, if in the future we find this current cabinet collectively responsible for, say, crimes against humanity for selling arms to Saudi Arabia - a move that I would consider reasonable and just but feel free to imagine other crimes if you think that unreasonable - is it okay if we just imprison the others for a few years, but revoke Sajid Javid's citizenship while he's out the country on the grounds that really he's Pakistani? Just trying to get this straight.

ooh... does it have to be just the current cabinet? Johnson's fingerprints are all over the Yemen crimes. He was born in the USA, after he's released from Belmarsh revoking his citizenship would be very satisfactory.

 

[Pickman's model]

ooh... does it have to be just the current cabinet? Johnson's fingerprints are all over the Yemen crimes. He was born in the USA, after he's released from Belmarsh revoking his citizenship would be very satisfactory.

his name's been down for grytviken for some years now

 

[Brainaddict]

ooh... does it have to be just the current cabinet? Johnson's fingerprints are all over the Yemen crimes. He was born in the USA, after he's released from Belmarsh revoking his citizenship would be very satisfactory.

Now you're just being silly. Johnson is white. No-one would ever dream of doing it to him. I'm just trying to pursue consistency here.

 

[Poi E]

Johnson is white

Frostbite will clear that up.

 

[Yossarian]

ooh... does it have to be just the current cabinet? Johnson's fingerprints are all over the Yemen crimes. He was born in the USA, after he's released from Belmarsh revoking his citizenship would be very satisfactory.

Johnson gave up his US nationality a few years ago so not much chance of getting him sent to SuperMax, unfortunately.

 

[Spymaster]

She's not being left anywhere. Refugee camps aren't permanent settlements. She will be repatriated somewhere and we've said fuck off you're not our problem because you're brown. Racism doesn't suddenly become okay because you're doing it to a shitty person.

Here we go again. Over 100 other dual nationals have had their UK citizenship revoked for going to join ISIS.

Fwiw, I'm don't necessarily agree with stripping her citizenship, especially if it makes her stateless, which is illegal, or if it amounts to an abuse of power by Javid. From what I can gather though she is a Bangladeshi citizen under Bangladeshi law. They seem to say that if either of someone's parents is born in Bangladesh that person is automitically a Bangladeshi citizen. Ireland is the same. If either of one's parent were born on the island of Ireland (including NI), the Republic of Ireland government aoutomatically considers that person to be an Irish citizen regardless of whether they've ever set foot in the country or hold an Irish passport.

 

[Spymaster]

On a plus side, it seems the Home Sec now has the power to remove Spymaster to India or Ireland ...

If I'd fucked off to join IS to help out with a spot of genocide, rape, and murder, I'd fully expect it.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Here we go again. Over 100 other dual nationals have had their UK citizenship revoked for going to join ISIS.

Fwiw, I'm don't necessarily agree with stripping her citizenship, especially if it makes her stateless, which is illegal, or if it amounts to an abuse of power by Javid. From what I can gather though she is a Bangladeshi citizen under Bangladeshi law. They seem to say that if either of someone's parents is born in Bangladesh that person is automitically a Bangladeshi citizen. Ireland is the same. If either of one's parent were born on the island of Ireland (including NI), the Republic of Ireland government aoutomatically considers that person to be an Irish citizen regardless of whether they've ever set foot in the country or hold an Irish passport.

Setting aside the racism angle, you can see how totally out of order this approach is, no? And also how potentially damaging and counterproductive it is. At a stroke, the home secretary labels thousands and thousands of British people who have never taken any action to obtain a second nationality as second-class citizens.

 

[Pickman's model]

Here we go again. Over 100 other dual nationals have had their UK citizenship revoked for going to join ISIS.

Fwiw, I'm don't necessarily agree with stripping her citizenship, especially if it makes her stateless, which is illegal, or if it amounts to an abuse of power by Javid. From what I can gather though she is a Bangladeshi citizen under Bangladeshi law. They seem to say that if either of someone's parents is born in Bangladesh that person is automitically a Bangladeshi citizen. Ireland is the same. If either of one's parent were born on the island of Ireland (including NI), the Republic of Ireland government aoutomatically considers that person to be an Irish citizen regardless of whether they've ever set foot in the country or hold an Irish passport.

hate to correct you, mccunty

 

[Spymaster]

You are talking to someone who got very animated about bigoted White middle class men being called gammon but not so much when his own mates here on Urban were joking and referring to him nignog and as a paki.

Wow! Well this thread really has brought out the personal stuff hasn't it?

Sorry I'm not always as blisteringly keen as you are to play the race card at the drop of a hat.

This move to revoke her citizenship can't be used on a person who has both parents born in this country.

It can be used on anyone who legally holds dual nationality.

 

[Spymaster]

View attachment 162410

hate to correct you, mccunty

Sorry, but:

Irish citizen parents born in Ireland
If either of your parents was an Irish citizen who was born in Ireland, then you are automatically an Irish citizen, irrespective of your place of birth. If you are an Irish citizen, you can apply for an Irish passport. You do not need an Irish passport in order to be an Irish citizen but having an Irish passport is evidence that you are an Irish citizen.

Irish citizenship through birth or descent

 

[maomao]

If I'd fucked off to join IS to help out with a spot of genocide, rape, and murder, I'd fully expect it.

So why do you want her to get away with it? Or have the Bangladeshi authorities assured us they'll be locking her up?

 

[Pickman's model]

Sorry, but:


Irish citizenship through birth or descent

people who are born now in ireland will no longer be able to rely on it when their progeny seek irish nationality

 

[Yossarian]

I wonder how creative the government is going to get if this precedent stands - seems like the next step would be paying impoverished or corrupt countries to issue passports to people the government doesn't want returning.

"Oh, you want to come back to Britain? Tough shit, you're a citizen of South Sudan now..."

 

[MickiQ]

So I'm interested, if in the future we find this current cabinet collectively responsible for, say, crimes against humanity for selling arms to Saudi Arabia - a move that I would consider reasonable and just but feel free to imagine other crimes if you think that unreasonable - is it okay if we just imprison the others for a few years, but revoke Sajid Javid's citizenship while he's out the country on the grounds that really he's Pakistani? Just trying to get this straight.

Skimming through Javid's wiki bio and the Pakistan Immigration webpage (which is disturbingly sexist) then unless Javid's father (mother doesn't matter) has renounced his own Pakistani citizenship which would automatically strip all his children (inc Javid) of theirs then Javid is indeed entitled to Pakistani citizenship and could be stripped of his British one by a future Home Secretary.
The idea of dual citizenship is really meant to cover people that were born in one country and move to another one to live, work, marry, have kids etc. Most countries allow citizenship by descent to survive 2 generations. (The immigrants kids and grand kids have it, great-grandkids don't). If you accept that someone can be stripped of their British citizenship because they technically have citizenship in the country their parents or grandparents came from but they may have never been then at this point in time pretty much everyone descended from a post-WW2 immigrant could be affected.

 

[maomao]

Both my kids are entitled to Chinese nationality but would have to give up British citizenship to get it (China doesn't allow dual nationality which is why my wife is not a UK citizen). I hope this doesn't set any precedents for how they'll be treated in thirty years time if we're at war with China.

 

[Spymaster]

So why do you want her to get away with it? Or have the Bangladeshi authorities assured us they'll be locking her up?

I don't care what happens to her. As I've repeatedly said, if she makes her way to UK consular services then she should be brought here and tried.

 

[Pickman's model]

Both my kids are entitled to Chinese nationality but would have to give up British citizenship to get it (China doesn't allow dual nationality which is why my wife is not a UK citizen). I hope this doesn't set any precedents for how they'll be treated in thirty years time if we're at war with China.

i'd be very surprised if you have to wait thirty years

 

[Athos]

Both my kids are entitled to Chinese nationality but would have to give up British citizenship to get it (China doesn't allow dual nationality which is why my wife is not a UK citizen). I hope this doesn't set any precedents for how they'll be treated in thirty years time if we're at war with China.

As the law stands, they'd be fine. There solely British citizens.

 

[Athos]

Skimming through Javid's wiki bio and the Pakistan Immigration webpage (which is disturbingly sexist) then unless Javid's father (mother doesn't matter) has renounced his own Pakistani citizenship which would automatically strip all his children (inc Javid) of theirs then Javid is indeed entitled to Pakistani citizenship and could be stripped of his British one by a future Home Secretary.
The idea of dual citizenship is really meant to cover people that were born in one country and move to another one to live, work, marry, have kids etc. Most countries allow citizenship by descent to survive 2 generations. (The immigrants kids and grand kids have it, great-grandkids don't). If you accept that someone can be stripped of their British citizenship because they technically have citizenship in the country their parents or grandparents came from but they may have never been then at this point in time pretty much everyone descended from a post-WW2 immigrant could be affected.

As the law stands, he'd need to be a dual national, rather than simply be entitled to become one.

 

[Brainaddict]

Skimming through Javid's wiki bio and the Pakistan Immigration webpage (which is disturbingly sexist) then unless Javid's father (mother doesn't matter) has renounced his own Pakistani citizenship which would automatically strip all his children (inc Javid) of theirs then Javid is indeed entitled to Pakistani citizenship and could be stripped of his British one by a future Home Secretary.
The idea of dual citizenship is really meant to cover people that were born in one country and move to another one to live, work, marry, have kids etc. Most countries allow citizenship by descent to survive 2 generations. (The immigrants kids and grand kids have it, great-grandkids don't). If you accept that someone can be stripped of their British citizenship because they technically have citizenship in the country their parents or grandparents came from but they may have never been then at this point in time pretty much everyone descended from a post-WW2 immigrant could be affected.

They're not really British you know. Not the ones who commit crimes. They others, we'll allow them to stay British because they've been good.

Still, it will be a relief to be rid of Javid, so swings and roundabouts, eh?

(Good research btw).

 

[Athos]

So why do you want her to get away with it? Or have the Bangladeshi authorities assured us they'll be locking her up?

If she comes to the UK and is convicted she'd probably get around six years, meaning she'd serve three.

 

[Brainaddict]

As the law stands, he'd need to be a dual national, rather than simply be entitled to become one.

Er. Isn't this discussion happening because the home secretary just removed citizenship because of an entitlement to citizenship elsewhere? Sorry if I'm missing something.

 

[Spymaster]

Er. Isn't this discussion happening because the home secretary just removed citizenship because of an entitlement to citizenship elsewhere?

No. Under Bangladeshi law she is already a Bangladeshi citizen, not just entitled to become one.

 

[Athos]

Er. Isn't this discussion happening because the home secretary just removed citizenship because of an entitlement to citizenship elsewhere? Sorry if I'm missing something.

Err... no. Because we don't know that's what's happened. And the law is pretty clear that it can only be removed on the basis of an entitlement to citizenship of another country (as opposed to dual actual citizenship) where the UK citizenship was obtained by naturalization (or fraud).

 

[littlebabyjesus]

No. Under Bangladeshi law she is already a Bangladeshi citizen, not just entitled to become one.

But presumably until yesterday the authorities in Bangladesh had no idea she even existed. I'm sure they don't keep track of every birth registered around the world to the Bangladeshi diaspora. This is a purely notional citizenship until she actually applies for something with them and provides evidence of her right to it. The only country with her on record as a citizen will be the UK.

Compare and contrast with, say, my friend's daughter, who is registered as both British and Japanese. The Japanese authorities know of her existence and are fine with her being a dual national until she reaches 18, at which point she will have to choose. Now she's only a kid, but someone - in this case her parents - has made a decision to make her a dual national. Here, the home secretary is trying to exploit idea that you can be a dual national by accident, potentially without even realising it, without ever having taken any steps to obtain it.

 

[Brainaddict]

No. Under Bangladeshi law she is already a Bangladeshi citizen, not just entitled to become one.

This is semantic bullshit, and you should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[Spymaster]

This is semantic bullshit, and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Lol