cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
That's all about people in the UK, preventing them from leaving the country, not about people returning to the UK, where refusing a passport would make them stateless.
British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'
- Thread starter hipipol
- Start date
That's all about people in the UK, preventing them from leaving the country, not about people returning to the UK, where refusing a passport would make them stateless.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Yeah, I reckon that's probably right.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Again though, most of that looks to prevent people travelling from the UK rather than to it. Withdrawing someone's passport (or refusing to issue one) when they're overseas, would seem to render them stateless.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Shouldn’t need a fucking passport to move from place to place anyway. That’s not what they were meant for.
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
Refusing a passport does not make them stateless, a passport is not citizenship, it is a travel document - and I'm afraid that yes, the UK government can refuse to issue a passport if (either), a person is suspected of a serious crime and a warrant is issued, or if a court order is secured.
The statement however is primarily aimed at UK citizens in the UK being prevented from traveling abroad - what it's not is clear about refusing/cancelling the passport UK citizen who is abroad and wishes to return to the UK.
Worth noting is the part the Royal Perogotive plays in this.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
That really is terrible. Very upsetting.
Athos
Well-Known Member
This is interesting:
'Passport entitlement
There is no statute law governing the grant, refusal of British passports, which are issued in the United Kingdom. However, certain principles apply which are as follows:-
United Kingdom passports are issued in the UK at the discretion of the Home Secretary and in overseas posts at the discretion of the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs. They are issued in exercise of the Royal Prerogative, which is an executive power that doesn’t require legislation.
There is however, no entitlement to a passport and there are circumstances where passport facilities are refused: -
• Minors whose journey is known to be contrary to a Court Order, to the wishes of a parent or other person or authority awarded custody or care and control, under the provisions of the Children Act 1989, or the Children Act (Scotland) 1995, or the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995;
• Where a person is to be arrested under a warrant issued in the United Kingdom or is wanted by the United Kingdom police in suspicion of a serious crime;
• Where a person’s past or proposed activities are so demonstrably undesirable that the grant or continued enjoyment of passport facilities would be contrary to the public interest (these cases are very rare and decisions on this category are made personally by the Home Secretary);
• In the case of UK nationals who have been repatriated from abroad at public expense, until they have repaid their debt.' [My emphasis]
It comes from here:
Royal Prerogative
In reality, it's almost inconceivable that any use of his discretion to de facto do something that parliament has de jure made unlawful e.g. in practice to make her stateless would withstand a claim for judicial review (notwithstanding the historical difficulties of JR for exercise of royal perogative in matters of national security).
'Passport entitlement
There is no statute law governing the grant, refusal of British passports, which are issued in the United Kingdom. However, certain principles apply which are as follows:-
United Kingdom passports are issued in the UK at the discretion of the Home Secretary and in overseas posts at the discretion of the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs. They are issued in exercise of the Royal Prerogative, which is an executive power that doesn’t require legislation.
There is however, no entitlement to a passport and there are circumstances where passport facilities are refused: -
• Minors whose journey is known to be contrary to a Court Order, to the wishes of a parent or other person or authority awarded custody or care and control, under the provisions of the Children Act 1989, or the Children Act (Scotland) 1995, or the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995;
• Where a person is to be arrested under a warrant issued in the United Kingdom or is wanted by the United Kingdom police in suspicion of a serious crime;
• Where a person’s past or proposed activities are so demonstrably undesirable that the grant or continued enjoyment of passport facilities would be contrary to the public interest (these cases are very rare and decisions on this category are made personally by the Home Secretary);
• In the case of UK nationals who have been repatriated from abroad at public expense, until they have repaid their debt.' [My emphasis]
It comes from here:
Royal Prerogative
In reality, it's almost inconceivable that any use of his discretion to de facto do something that parliament has de jure made unlawful e.g. in practice to make her stateless would withstand a claim for judicial review (notwithstanding the historical difficulties of JR for exercise of royal perogative in matters of national security).
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8ball
Decolonise colons!
Me too; what I’ve heard and read of the crimes of the Syrian regime is also pretty traumatic, and that’s just to read and hear about.
The “eye for an eye” has to end somewhere if there is ever going to be peace.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
None of this is that weird. She is of Bangladeshi heritage, but was born in the UK, she is British. If she makes it to a British Consulate or Embassy they will be obliged to issue her with emergency travel documents, but not obliged to assist with her travel arrangements. The people running the camp she is in have said that she is not free to leave as she pleases as she has no documents, they want the UK to provide the paperwork (shouldn’t be too tricky), and then deal with her once she gets back here. Surely this is the UK’s obligation to her and to the other states of the world.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
I don't care what the Syrian regime (or anyone else) does to people who've been responsible for what she describes. It neatly solves the problem of repatriating and prosecuting them here though.
cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
,
Well a passport is a bit more than just a travel document, as it certifies someone's citizenship, and without that it would basically appear to leave them stateless. And, as you say, that statement is primarily aimed at keeping people in the UK, not preventing their return.
I saw an interview with the Attorney General, or a former one, saying we can not make her stateless under both UK & international law, and we can't stop her returning. Meanwhile in Parliament yesterday, Javid finally admitted the same, saying - While the UK cannot leave people stateless, under international law, he said any such Britons would be "questioned, investigated and potentially prosecuted".
That doesn't mean the UK has go out of it's way to provide help, and she would appear in limbo, being in Syria with no British Consulate or Embassy available, but if she manages to cross the border and get to one, they will have to issue a passport or some other legal travel documents.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
As has been said, that's just not true. Not having a passport and being stateless are very different things.
Athos
Well-Known Member
I think refusing to let a citizen back into the only country of which they hold citizenship (by witholding a passport) is de facto making them stateless. It'd never fly.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
That’d certainly be true if they were refused the passport whilst they were in the UK. Not issuing one to someone who is overseas and trying to return, I think it could be argued, has the same effect as making them stateless.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Maybe it's semantics in part we arguing about here, but no it doesn't. The only thing that makes them stateless is having their citizenship withdrawn. The British State isn't obliged to issue any passports to UK citizens abroad when they demand/want one.
She, for example, could be arrested and stuck in a prison somewhere. She'd not have a passport but would still be a UK citizen with all that goes with that. She could be handed over to UK authorities while abroad and brought back under detention, no passport but still a UK citizen.
I think it's an important distinction. She is not at all in the same position as people that have been made stateless.
Athos
Well-Known Member
You may be right by the black letter of the law, but I'd be amazed if any court interpreted it that way. Because it's effectively depriving her of being able to lawfully live anywhere, insofar as she couldn't lawfully enter the UK, and has no legal right to live anywhere else. De facto, if not de jure, statelessness.
Yes, it shouldn't be that hard. If the worlds press can get to the camp easily enough I'm sure the British government could work out a way of getting her out of there. In general the government needs a strategy for dealing with the various British IS supporters who are now in various refugee / prisoner of war camps dotted around Iraq and Syria.
But it sticks in the craw somewhat that should the UK government extricate her from her self made mess than she would be getting better and preferential treatment than some backpacker that had just run out of money in a country with no UK consular services. Given everything she has done and enabled, not to mention her existing attitude, get better treatment than you or I would?
Not sure a passport certifies citizenship as such. It may be supporting evidence if someone's citizenship is being challenged but it doesn't confer it of itself. The owning of a passport or right to own one being denied doesn't mean the individual has had their citizenship revoked.
It's irrelevant anyway as Bahnohf outlines above. She'd travel back with emergency docs and having done so, may never be issued a passport in future. All the while remaining a British citizen.
as everyone else has already said basically.
rekil
to menny cranks
This would probably be one of the least desirable outcomes given the regime's longstanding relationship with ISIS and record of facilitating jihadi carnage in 'Raq.
http://time.com
Islamic State is collaborating with Assad, leaked documents reveal
This story requires deeper investigation.
ITV News just said her citizenship has been revoked
TheHoodedClaw
acknowledging ur soup leg
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
Not sure that they've ever done that for someone who has just given birth and who is in a refugee camp.
That letter reads like it's been written in crayon.
Do you not think that's a bit off? Not just you, there's loads of dodgy comments on this thread.
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