British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

[brogdale]

Is there hypocrisy in monstering an individual when our state is responsible for war and destruction? Yes, but nobody here is supporting the actions of the British state, I don't think.

You could say it's easier to hate one person, especially a young brown woman who doesn't fit with an idea (whose idea?) of how young women should be, rather than take responsibility for our own failings, individual and collective. I'd agree with that. Our view of her may be distorted, it is bound to be distorted, she's become the focus for all sorts of strong feeling, but making her 'innocent' is just as distorting as making her a monster, neither help us see reality.

Until convicted she remains innocent, and for that to change she has to return to the UK.

 

[Red Cat]

Until convicted she remains innocent, and for that to change she has to return to the UK.

I'm sure you understood that I wasn't talking in a legal sense.

 

[Idris2002]

just get stabby in a supermarket

Not for political reasons anyway. . .

 

[Idris2002]

DON'T MORAL PANIC, MR MRSKI!

They don't like it up 'em, apparently.

I have, for some time, been wondering if the concept of the moral panic is obsolete. . .

 

[Spymaster]

Until convicted she remains innocent...

Only if you really want to take the piss out of the word "innocent" and stretch it to its legal limit. She has admitted what she's done here and said she doesn't regret it.

 

[brogdale]

Only if you really want to take the piss out of the word "innocent" and stretch it to its legal limit. She has admitted what she's done here and said she doesn't regret it.

Not really taking the piss to use the word in a widely accepted form; doesn't this go to heart of the argument for her return to the UK?

 

[tim]

Is there hypocrisy in monstering an individual when our state is responsible for war and destruction? Yes, but nobody here is supporting the actions of the British state, I don't think.

You could say it's easier to hate one person, especially a young brown woman who doesn't fit with an idea (whose idea?) of how young women should be, rather than take responsibility for our own failings, individual and collective. I'd agree with that. Our view of her may be distorted, it is bound to be distorted, she's become the focus for all sorts of strong feeling, but making her 'innocent' is just as distorting as making her a monster, neither help us see reality.

Exactly, I've not consciously sought to portray her as the Madonna, but I have tried to challenge the whoring of her.

 

[tim]

I have, for some time, been wondering if the concept of the moral panic is obsolete. . .

We still keep on having them, so probably not.

 

[Spymaster]

... doesn't this go to heart of the argument for her return to the UK?

Well no. The argument about her return is whether or not the state should facilitate it, given that she has very publicly told us exactly what she's done (travel 2000 miles to join a proscibed cult who were raping and murdering their way across another country).

 

[danny la rouge]

Only if you really want to take the piss out of the word "innocent" and stretch it to its legal limit. She has admitted what she's done here and said she doesn't regret it.

She’s innocent in much the same way that Schrödinger’s cat is still alive.

 

[Idris2002]

We still keep.on having them, so probably not.

Yet the media landscape is very different today, compared to how it was when Stanley Cohen came up with the idea in 1972.

 

[NoXion]

The worrying on this thread has been about the domestic terror threat posed by people returning from Syria/Iraq.

Exactly, and in my other post I pointed out how people have good reason to be concerned, even if the actual threat to their own personal safety is minimal. Just because the chances of a particular individual being struck by lightning are lottery odds, doesn't mean that building lightning conductors is pointless. People win the lottery (and get struck by lightning) on a regular basis.

Terrorism isn't just about the people who get hurt and killed in the attacks. The events in New York on the 11th September 2001 had an impact that went well beyond just the 3000-odd people who died that day.

 

[Red Cat]

Not really taking the piss to use the word in a widely accepted form; doesn't this go to heart of the argument for her return to the UK?

And yet it was a reply my post in which I'd put it in quotes and was clearly describing a social process in which ideas about innocence are created in relation to 'femininity'. So not using it in the legal sense at all.

 

[brogdale]

Well no. The argument about her return is whether or not the state should facilitate it, given that she has very publicly told us exactly what she's done (travel 2000 miles to join a proscibed cult who were raping and murdering their way across another country).

Well states do extradite people accused of serious crime.

 

[brogdale]

And yet it was a reply my post in which I'd put it in quotes and was clearly describing a social process in which ideas about innocence are created in relation to 'femininity'. So not using it in the legal sense at all.

I almost certainly misread your post and meaning; my apologies.

 

[Spymaster]

Well states do extradite people accused of serious crime.

When they're accused of committing a crime in the country in which they are wanted to stand trial. You're really reaching here.

 

[brogdale]

When they're accused of committing a crime in the country in which they are wanted to stand trial. You're really reaching here.

Not really; I thought the point was that a UK national (allegedly) going to fight for a terrorist organisation like ISIS was a crime in the eyes of the UK state.

 

[Spymaster]

Not really; I thought the point was that a UK national (allegedly) going to fight for a terrorist organisation like ISIS was a crime in the eyes of the UK state.

Oh, I see what you mean. I think the bulk of the crimes she's committed are probably against Syrians, nothwithstanding that joining IS is a criminal act here. The argument though, isn't about her legal guilt but her moral code and the moral obligations of the British state.

 

[LDC]

As far as I know she's being held in an area of Syria that is under the control of the PYD. What the balance between being a refugee camp where you can come and go and a detention centre with restricted in/out where she is I have no idea but it wouldn't be hard to find out. But either way formal extradition is a non-starter. Some official deal with the PYD would be entirely within the realms of the possible, as would an un/semi-official visit to take her documents and money to facilitate her leaving to get somewhere from where she can leave the entire area. Not easy but possible.

But I think the main question being discussed is whether the British State starts that process to help her get back, nobody here has argued she should be refused entry to the UK should she somehow get to the point where she turns up to board a flight or arrives at the border, nor that she should be stripped of her citizenship.

And as I have made clear my answer to whether she gets help now is a very firm no. If she manages to turn up here somehow then we're in a very different position.

I'd be mildly amused if she ended up being part of a prisoner swap with the Assad regime for some Kurdish/SDF prisoners.

 

[A380]

Yes, I know I might get picked up by some that feel this is mocking someone’s age and heritage .



But then, it’s only Prince Philip...

 

[Red Cat]

I almost certainly misread your post and meaning; my apologies.

No worries, at least you read it

 

[brogdale]

Oh, I see what you mean. I think the bulk of the crimes she's committed are probably against Syrians, nothwithstanding that joining IS is a criminal act here. The argument though, isn't about her legal guilt but her moral code and the moral obligations of the British state.

Since when did state jurisdictions operate on the basis of moral obligations? There is/are precedents to the Begum case:

 

[likesfish]

just nobody who could do that wants to do it.
a she's a potential threat to civilians in the UK
b she joined daesh and doesn't seen terribly apologetic about it
c public are less than sympathetic
d its difficult and expensive

 

[kebabking]

Exactly, I've not consciously sought to portray her as the Madonna, but I have tried to challenge the whoring of her.

No one here has argued that she's a whore rather that she's a willing accessory to murder, slavery, and genocide.

Is this train of argument a bit like the 'but, thicky racists.....' as seen on the brexit threads?

 

[brogdale]

just nobody who could do that wants to do it.
a she's a potential threat to civilians in the UK
b she joined daesh and doesn't seen terribly apologetic about it
c public are less than sympathetic
d its difficult and expensive

Up to the state, innit?
It's their call about whether or not they seek to effect her return to face justice.
Sounds like they don't want to atm meaning that she remains a legally innocent UK national living as a displaced person/'refugee' in Syria.

 

[Red Cat]

No one here has argued that she's a whore rather that she's a willing accessory to murder, slavery, and genocide.

Is this train of argument a bit like the 'but, thicky racists.....' as seen on the brexit threads?

It's not so black and white as all that, these processes are subtle, they effect us all.

 

[Spymaster]

Since when did state jurisdictions operate on the basis of moral obligations? There is/are precedents to the Begum case:

View attachment 162133

Well if you want to argue that the state is legally obliged to go out and get her, then you're on even more shaky ground.

 

[Spymaster]

Sounds like they don't want to atm meaning that she remains a legally innocent UK national living as a displaced person/'refugee' in Syria.

Oh dear, how sad, what a shame, never mind.

 

[mystic pyjamas]

Nigel Farage (yes I know) on LBC radio is saying she has given birth.
Now The shit really has hit the fan.

 

[brogdale]

Well if you want to argue that the state is legally obliged to go out and get her, then you're on even more shaky ground.

'Shaky ground' doesn't come into it at all; the state decides whether or not it wants to effect Begum's return and its obligations to her are the same as any other UK national.