British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

[The39thStep]

Amy raggamuffin who went to join ISIS put their life on the line too. I'm a bit surprised as to how this hardened veteran calls her a dangerous young woman, compared to the other guy who faced charges calling for some balance.

I suppose the difference in putting life on the line is between those who went to fight fascism and those who went to join fascism. The former went to kill to save lives, the latter went to kill to kill more. Without the antifascists winning a diffrence of opinion about what to do with the defeated enemy wouldnt be possible.

 

[tim]

no-one seems very bothered about rushing in to try to rescue poor old John Cantlie

Cantlie was/is being held prisoner at a seemingly unknown location Begum is in a refugee camp at a known location, and seemingly free to leave.

Apparently, Cantlie may still be alive.

 

[MrSki]

DON'T MORAL PANIC, MR MRSKI!

They don't like it up 'em, apparently.

Twat.
I hope for your sake no-one you know becomes a victim of terrorism. Or has a fatality with a tree for that matter.

 

[eoin_k]

There's a witch hunt against Isis? Have I got that right?

 

[MrSki]

I think tim doesn't see them as more of a threat to life than a tree falling on your head.

 

[tim]

There's a witch hunt against Isis? Have I got that right?

There's a hysteria, a moral panic.

 

[eoin_k]

Let he who has not laid waste to large chunks of eastern Syria and committed genocide against peaceable religious minorities cast the first stone.

 

[tim]

I think tim doesn't see them as more of a threat to life than a tree falling on your head.

Because that's the reality.

Two women a week are killed by their partners in England and Wales, but I don't see the same angst about domestic violence than I see on this thread, which is about a young pregnant woman who wants to return to the country of which she is a citizen

 

[eoin_k]

Hysterical's an interesting turn of phrase to deploy while suggesting others are indulging in a witch hunt. I guess the main distinction I'd draw between Daesh and those accused of witchcraft back in the day would be... evidential.

 

[Riklet]

Quite a few more than 2 women a week have been dying in Syria for the past 4-5 years while she's been out there tbf. And it's not like it's an either/or situation - we can still care about domestic abuse and violence in society and seek to tackle that.

Also, I dont think the very real threat of Islamic extremism in an increasingly unsettled and turbulent world/europe is just moral hysteria either. We shouldn't downplay islamist success and their future ambitions - same with the far right.

 

[MrSki]

Because that's the reality.

Two women a week are killed by their partners in England and Wales, but I don't see the same angst about domestic violence than I see on this thread, which is about a young pregnant woman who wants to return to the country of which she is a citizen

So what has the sad fact that two women a week are murdered by their partners got to do with this thread?
I thought the thread had moved on to IS volunteers, who are willing to give their lives for their cause, returning to their countries of origin & the threat that poses?

 

[tim]

Hysterical's an interesting turn of phrase to deploy while suggesting others are indulging in a witch hunt. I guess the main distinction I'd draw between Daesh and those accused of witchcraft back in the day would be... evidential.

Hysterical because this is not about the crimes of Daesh but about the return of Shamima Begum a heavily pregnant 19 year old non-combatant. She wasn't actually personally responsible for what happened in the picture above.

 

[tim]

So what has the sad fact that two women a week are murdered by their partners got to do with this thread?
I thought the thread had moved on to IS volunteers, who are willing to give their lives for their cause, returning to their countries of origin & the threat that poses?

It's something that is actually happening rather than something that may or might happen.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Hysterical because this is not about the crimes of Daesh but about the return of Shamima Begum a heavily pregnant 19 year old non-combatant. She wasn't actually personally responsible for what happened in the picture above.

You cannot discuss Begum without also discussing the crimes of Daesh, a group of which she was a very willing part, with whom she made common cause. She bears some personal responsibility for their actions as a result of her actions. I think it's naive or disingenuous to claim otherwise.

Thing is, saying the above then gets jumped on, and has been jumped on repeatedly on this thread, by people saying 'oh so you think she's evil and we should forget about her' or 'so you think she should be locked up forever' or 'you think she's irredeemable'. That's not helpful either. She is a young person with a bunch of abhorrent beliefs, who has acted on those beliefs, helping people doing despicable things, and got herself into a total fucking mess in the process. And she faces a difficult and potentially long route back to some kind of normality here, if she gets back.

The rest of us are not disinterested parties in that. How she somehow returns here is our business. She made it our business by joining Islamic State. So I'd throw this back at you at this point. Do you disagree with the way that there are proscribed organisations, membership of which is itself a criminal offence? That's the crime she has clearly committed here and can and probably will be prosecuted for if she returns. If you don't disagree with that then she's a little more than just a 'heavily pregnant 19 year old non-combatant'.

 

[NoXion]

Because that's the reality.

Two women a week are killed by their partners in England and Wales, but I don't see the same angst about domestic violence than I see on this thread, which is about a young pregnant woman who wants to return to the country of which she is a citizen

Whataboutery. Nobody's denying that domestic violence is a problem. If you're so concerned about that, as illustrated by your extensive posts on the matter, why not start a thread?

This situation arose because of a geopolitical situation which has seen millions displaced in hostile circumstances. Like it or not, it's one of those stories that put a human face on what, for most of the residents of a country which hasn't seen a full-on civil war in centuries, is a distant affair. The same reason that so much attention was drawn the death of Alan Kurdi (warning, link contains a photo of the dead child in question), despite him being just one of many who have perished as a result of this particular clusterfuck.

People still have reasonable grounds to be concerned, even if the actual threat to their own personal safety is minimal. Terrorist attacks are disruptive by design, with repercussions that ring out long after the dust from the actual bombs has settled and the blood has been cleaned up.

 

[tim]

You cannot discuss Begum without also discussing the crimes of Daesh, a group of which she was a very willing part, with whom she made common cause. She bears some personal responsibility for their actions as a result of her actions. I think it's naive or disingenuous to claim otherwise.

Thing is, saying the above then gets jumped on, and has been jumped on repeatedly on this thread, by people saying 'oh so you think she's evil and we should forget about her' or 'so you think she should be locked up forever' or 'you think she's irredeemable'. That's not helpful either. She is a young person with a bunch of abhorrent beliefs, who has acted on those beliefs, helping people doing despicable things, and got herself into a total fucking mess in the process. And she faces a difficult and potentially long route back to some kind of normality here, if she gets back.

The rest of us are not disinterested parties in that. How she somehow returns here is our business. She made it our business by joining Islamic State. So I'd throw this back at you at this point. Do you disagree with the way that there are proscribed organisations, membership of which is itself a criminal offence? That's the crime she has clearly committed here and can and probably will be prosecuted for if she returns. If you don't disagree with that then she's a little more than just a 'heavily pregnant 19 year old non-combatant'.

As with anyone under suspicion, if there is evidence of her having commited a crime, she should face a proper trial in a court.

 

[tim]

You cannot discuss Begum without also discussing the crimes of Daesh, a group of which she was a very willing part, with whom she made common cause. She bears some personal responsibility for their actions as a result of her actions. I think it's naive or disingenuous to claim otherwise.

Thing is, saying the above then gets jumped on, and has been jumped on repeatedly on this thread, by people saying 'oh so you think she's evil and we should forget about her' or 'so you think she should be locked up forever' or 'you think she's irredeemable'. That's not helpful either. She is a young person with a bunch of abhorrent beliefs, who has acted on those beliefs, helping people doing despicable things, and got herself into a total fucking mess in the process. And she faces a difficult and potentially long route back to some kind of normality here, if she gets back.

The rest of us are not disinterested parties in that. How she somehow returns here is our business. She made it our business by joining Islamic State. So I'd throw this back at you at this point. Do you disagree with the way that there are proscribed organisations, membership of which is itself a criminal offence? That's the crime she has clearly committed here and can and probably will be prosecuted for if she returns. If you don't disagree with that then she's a little more than just a 'heavily pregnant 19 year old non-combatant'.

We never really got this worked up about the non-combatant partners and children of loyalist paramilitaries, did we? How were the brutal sectarian cults they were members of different from Daesh? They killed and tortured with a similae level of brutality, didn't they?

 

[NoXion]

We never really got this worked up about the non-combatant partners and children of loyalist paramilitaries, did we? How were the brutal sectarian cults they were members of different from Daesh? They killed and tortured with a similae level of brutality, didn't they?

Pretty sure that as bad as the Troubles undoubtedly were, there weren't entire towns in Ireland that got attacked with nerve gas and reduced to rubble with mass artillery strikes and aerial bombardment.

You're not comparing like with like. The Syrian conflict is of a much greater magnitude and intensity than the Troubles were. ~50,000 casualties vs 367,965 to 560,000. Not to mention Turkey, Russia, the Saudis, the US etc all sticking their oars in and stirring the pot.

Against such a brutalising background it's hardly surprising that great atrocities are committed. What happened during the Troubles to match that?

 

[tim]

Pretty sure that as bad as the Troubles undoubtedly were, there weren't entire towns in Ireland that got attacked with nerve gas and reduced to rubble with mass artillery strikes and aerial bombardment.

You're not comparing like with like. The Syrian conflict is of a much greater magnitude and intensity than the Troubles were. ~50,000 casualties vs 367,965 to 560,000. Not to mention Turkey, Russia, the Saudis, the US etc all sticking their oars in and stirring the pot.

Against such a brutalising background it's hardly surprising that great atrocities are committed. What happened during the Troubles to match that?

The worrying on this thread has been about the domestic terror threat posed by people returning from Syria/Iraq.

 

[marshall]

There are hundreds of them. They can't all be monitored 24/7.

But the thread is about this one British school girl and her particular situation, isn't it

And I really don't think that she, individually, poses a realistic threat...more likely, she presents an opportunity for us to better understand her original motivations for going in the first place. Anyway, bang on...

 

[LDC]

Because that's the reality.

Two women a week are killed by their partners in England and Wales, but I don't see the same angst about domestic violence than I see on this thread, which is about a young pregnant woman who wants to return to the country of which she is a citizen

Well done, with this post I lost any time for what you might have to say on the subject.

And I think the fact she's a woman, 19, and pregnant are all totally irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

I'm not saying I'd send in a rescue squad, but interesting the amount of coverage the mistakes of this perhaps naïve teenager got compared to the news yesterday that UK arms sales to the media are actually very likely illegal.

 

[Spymaster]

And I really don't think that she, individually, poses a realistic threat...

Really? What do you know about her that the rest of us don't? She travelled to Syria to join an exceptionally cruel, terror cult, stayed for 4 years, willingly married and procreated with one of their murderers, kept a slave, and is unrepentant about the whole gig. At an absolute minimum I'd suggest that she likely poses an ideological threat if not a far more serious one.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Of course she's no threat, it's not like IS has trained & used female suicide bombers.

Oh, hang on a minute.

 

[Red Cat]

But the thread is about this one British school girl and her particular situation, isn't it

And I really don't think that she, individually, poses a realistic threat...more likely, she presents an opportunity for us to better understand her original motivations for going in the first place. Anyway, bang on...

She's not a school girl and hasn't been for 4 years.

You're not in any position to assess threat are you? You even got the facts wrong in your first sentence.

 

[Sprocket.]

Sadly she will be seen as an inspiration by some, those who support the aims of Daesh for instance. As well as being another rallying point for the likes of Mr T Robinson and his cohorts.
This in itself is another problem caused by her alleged foolishness.

 

[Red Cat]

Because that's the reality.

Two women a week are killed by their partners in England and Wales, but I don't see the same angst about domestic violence than I see on this thread, which is about a young pregnant woman who wants to return to the country of which she is a citizen

So, men are more commonly violent and therefore we shouldn't be concerned about female violence by proxy?

Young pregnant women are sometimes directly violent too, to themselves and their children. You're idealising women and motherhood in a way that doesn't help women at all.

 

[tim]

Let he who has not laid waste to large chunks of eastern Syria and committed genocide against peaceable religious minorities cast the first stone.

That makes it difficult for the British state as they/wewe ha laid waste to Iraq and parts of Syria, including Raqqa, whose trapped people we liberated by dropping bombs on thrm. Of course which they/we have caused countless deaths, we were fairly indiscriminate about the faith of those we killed. Some of those we support and arm in the region kill more selectively.

 

[likesfish]

Mad dogs latest squeeze wasn't like to strap on a suicide vest or just get stabby in a supermarket

 

[Red Cat]

That makes it difficult for the British state as they/wewe ha laid waste to Iraq and parts of Syria, including Raqqa, whose trapped people we liberated by dropping bombs on thrm. Of course which they/we have caused countless deaths, we were fairly indiscriminate about the faith of those we killed. Some of those we support and arm in the region kill more selectively.

Is there hypocrisy in monstering an individual when our state is responsible for war and destruction? Yes, but nobody here is supporting the actions of the British state, I don't think.

You could say it's easier to hate one person, especially a young brown woman who doesn't fit with an idea (whose idea?) of how young women should be, rather than take responsibility for our own failings, individual and collective. I'd agree with that. Our view of her may be distorted, it is bound to be distorted, she's become the focus for all sorts of strong feeling, but making her 'innocent' is just as distorting as making her a monster, neither help us see reality.