British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

[eoin_k]

The obvious answer is that the reason she doesn't say that isn't fear, but because, fundamentally, she still believes in the ideology of a Caliphate and its corollary ideas e.g. the beheading of enemies of Islam.

Ocram's razor would suggest that this conclusion shouldn't be dismissed as wild speculation at the very least.

 

[Athos]

Ocram's razor would suggest that this conclusion shouldn't be dismissed as wild speculation at the very least.

I was a whisker away from referring to Occam's razor, too.

 

[inva]

She has described the death of her two children, she has described her husband witnessing the torture of devout Muslims in an Isis prison, she has described the corruption of a 'Caliphate' she no longer believes deserves to win. I am struggling to see what would be so much more dangerous about her saying. 'Yeah, with hindsight I might have been better off staying at home.'

i think the point i'm trying to make is that other IS members or sympathisers where she is don't necessarily hold the view that all was well with the caliphate either, even if they remain supporters of the cause.

 

[eoin_k]

i think the point i'm trying to make is that other IS members or sympathisers where she is don't necessarily hold the view that all was well with the caliphate either, even if they remain supporters of the cause.

Fine, but if they're happy for her to go off to The Times and spill the beans about what a shit show the whole affair was and how she just wants to go home, I'm struggling to see what problem there would be with her saying, in hindsight I wish I'd had no part in it.

 

[tim]

What is it about this perverted form of Islam that gets a very few on the left to take such contrary views to the ones they normally hold about gender equality, LGBT rights and , well just not being fascist slave holding dicks really?

This is a genuine question BTW not intended to be a hand grenade.

This is not about being somehow soft on ISIS. It's about getting someone out of a shitty situation. Whatever the choices people make, particularly at such a young age they deserve a second chance. I'd say the same for a teenager who got involved in Neo-Nazi groups, or going backs a couple of decades Loyalist or Republican paramilitary groups, the far left continental terrorism of the 70s or contemporary street gang violence.

 

[Athos]

This is not about being somehow soft on ISIS. It's about getting someone out of a shitty situation. Whatever the choices people make, particularly at such a young age they deserve a second chance. I'd say the same for a teenager who got involved in Neo-Nazi groups, or going backs pulled of decades Loyalist or Republican paramilitary groups. Or the far left continental terrorism of the 70s

Doesn't that depend upon them wanting a second chance i.e. expressing remorse for, and a repudiation of, their previous position? Or would you be keen to help those who still believe in Nazism, but just want to avail themselves of the NHS? And on what basis would you favour getting a loyalist paramilitary out of trouble over any of the millions of other people who've never been involved in such activity? Purely nationalism i.e. that they are British?

 

[inva]

Fine, but if they're happy for her to go off to The Times and spill the beans about what a shit show the whole affair was and how she just wants to go home, I'm struggling to see what problem there would be with her saying, in hindsight I wish I'd had no part in it.

maybe there wouldn't be a problem, i don't know. i think there's a reasonable chance she is speaking openly, and now i'm not really sure what we're arguing about if anything

 

[tim]

Doesn't that depend upon them wanting a second chance i.e. expressing remorse for, and a repudiation of, their previous position? Or would you be keen to help those who still believe in Nazism?

Firstly, in this case it's about getting someone out of harm's way. But in general people often need structured support if they are going to change.

 

[Athos]

Firstly, in this case it's about getting someone out of harm's way. But in general people often need structured support if they are going to change.

So would you do your best to get, say, an unrepentant neo-nazi out of harm's way, in the hope that he would change, in preference to helping others e.g. the blameless victims of fascism, because of nationalism i.e. if the neo-nazi happens to be British?

 

[tim]

So would you do your best to get, say, unrepentant neo-nazis out of harm's way, in the hope that they would change, in preference to helping others e.g. the blameless victims of fascism, because of nationalism i.e. if the neo-nazi happens to be British?

It's not an either or. You support the victims but you also help the victimizers get to a better place.

 

[Athos]

It's not an either or. You support the victims but you also help the victimizers get to a better place.

It's a lovely liberal sentiment, but, really, it's a cop out. In the current situation, it is an either/or; there's limited resources (if only insofar as the order in which it's practically possible to help people). If you had to decide to use them to help an unrepentant British neo-nazi or a blameless victim of fascism, which would you choose, and why?

You have a dichotomy: be consistent and end in a moral absurdity; or, be inconsistent and reveal how your attitude to this case reeks of paternalism and orientalism.

 

[8ball]

The obvious answer is that the reason she doesn't say that isn't fear, but because, fundamentally, she still believes in the ideology of a Caliphate and its corollary ideas e.g. the beheading of enemies of Islam.

Yeah, though she believes they didn't deserve to win because of their decadency and corruption.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The words appear to be her own, and the fact that she felt able to say that the Caliphate had lost its way to the extent that she doesn't think it deserves to win suggest you me that she's not overly fearful of reprisals. Which tends to suggest that she we truthful when she volunteered that she was unfazed by beheadings of enemies of Islam, rather than express remorse for her involvement with Daesh. There's no reason to think she's anything other than an adherent to the IS ideology that initially attracted her to join.

The bit in bold especially. The ideas that she was somehow innocent and didn't really know what IS were about when she ran off to join them or that she was somehow coerced to go against her will, neither of those ideas hold water. She was 15 when she ran off, not 5. She will have seen the beheadings, and her reaction to them was 'I want to go and marry one of those men and have his babies'. This isn't a crude caricature - that's exactly what she ran off to do. So she is an accessory to all the horrors inflicted on the people of Syria by the group she was with - an active supporter of their actions.

The above doesn't mean she wasn't naive, nor that she didn't think this was a great adventure at first. Who wouldn't? Running off to a war zone to join the fight to build a new society, fantasies of her sons growing up to be important men (sons of the first fighters, no less - privilege upon privilege) in the brave new world. The reality she met was such appalling squalor that neither of her first children survived infancy, and I doubt she imagined that. But she was signed up to the cause, which is God's Cause, and no doubt started out with a firm belief that IS would prevail. If she is surrounded by the victims of IS now, she should count herself lucky if they don't slit her throat. If they let her live, they are acting with far more compassion than IS would ever have shown.

 

[Spymaster]

Yeah, though she believes they didn't deserve to win because of their decadency and corruption.

As opposed to their culture of religious fanaticism, mass rape, murder, and torture.

 

[xenon]

It's a lovely liberal sentiment, but, really, it's a cop out. It is an either/or; there's limited resources (if only insofar as the order in which it's practically possible to help people). If you had to decide to use them to help an unrepentant British neo-nazi or a blameless victim of fascism, which would you choose, and why?

If you could press a magic button to rescue people from these terrible situations. One at a time. I don’t think I would get round to pressing it for her by the end of next week. Even if I worked 24 hours a day.

 

[Red Cat]

So much for understanding the different factors that led her there.

You don't know what they are. We don't actually know anything about the girl when she was 15, what her state of mind was like, her personality, what her family was like, her early childhood. There are 15 year olds who are sadistic, who are perverse, who are grandiose, who are cold and callous, there's nothing about being a 'child' that precludes any of that. All we know is the social and political context in a very general way, which may include vulnerability to grooming, but doesn't actually tell us a great deal.

 

[8ball]

As opposed to their culture of religious fanaticism, mass rape, murder, and torture.

They lacked consistency and integrity on that score, clearly.

We're corrupt and decadent too, but also weak enough to consider having her back, so the calculus has changed.

 

[Teaboy]

As opposed to their culture of religious fanaticism, mass rape, murder, and torture.

Yeah, she's cool with that. She just wants decent healthcare for her child, not those poor children who just wanted to go to a pop concert in Manchester. They deserved to die.

 

[eoin_k]

When did it become anti-Muslim not to want to give the benefit of the doubt to someone who deliberately went to a Daesh stronghold to build the caliphate?
She comes from a part of east London that was remarkably resilient to jihadi ideology for years, given its relative homogeneity and deprivation. Despite the headbangers, who are as likely to be white or afro-Carribean as South Asian, it wasn't local lads who blew up Aldgate tube station. It's as if Bethnal Green's Mulsim population doesn't include anyone who remembers the war of independence from Pakistan and the war crimes committed against Bengalis in Allah's name. It's as if none of them identifies with the Sufism of that country, which would have quickly seen them in a shallow grave in Syria. It's as if nobody still chooses to attend the Brick Lane mosque because they have a different take on Islam from those at the Saudi-funded East London Mosque, never mind the Daesh headbangers. It's as if textile workers' unions, or anti-racist self-defence groups, or militant secular youth movements have nothing to do with the living memory of the specific community she grew up in. It's as if Asian Dub Foundation's blend of music and politics emerged from a vacuum.
If the left in Britain has any responsibility for Begum's choices, it has more to do with making alliances with conservative tendencies in these 'communities' after 9/11, instead of supporting more progressive elements.

 

[Athos]

When did it become anti-Muslim not to want to give the benefit of the doubt to someone who deliberately went to a Daesh stronghold to build the caliphate?
She comes from a part of east London that was remarkably resilient to jihadi ideology for years, given its relative homogeneity and deprivation. Despite the headbangers, who are as likely to be white or afro-Carribean as South Asian, it wasn't local lads who blew up Aldgate tube station. It's as if Muslims in Bethnal Green don't include anyone who remembers the war of independence from Pakistan and the war crimes committed against Bengalis in Allah's name. It's as if none of them identifies with the Sufism of that country, which would have quickly seen them in a shallow grave in Syria. It's as if nobody still chooses to attend the Brick Lane mosque because they have a different take on Islam from those at the Saudi-funded East London Mosque, never mind the Daesh headbangers. It's as if textile workers' unions, or anti-racist self-defence groups, or militant secular youth movements have nothing to do with the living memory of the specific community she grew up in. It's as if Asian Dub foundation's blend of music and politics emerged from a vacuum.
If the left in Britain has any responsibility for Begum's choices, it has more to do with making alliances with conservative tendencies in these 'communities' after 9/11, instead of supporting more progressive elements.

The liberal left's buy-in to top-down, state-led multiculturalism requires a belief in homogeneity and 'community leaders', reflects some deep-seated orientalism, and often involves a craven abandonment of political principles.

 

[Shechemite]

I was a whisker away from referring to Occam's razor, too.

A close shave for sure

 

[tim]

It's a lovely liberal sentiment, but, really, it's a cop out. In the current situation, it is an either/or; there's limited resources (if only insofar as the order in which it's practically possible to help people). If you had to decide to use them to help an unrepentant British neo-nazi or a blameless victim of fascism, which would you choose, and why?

You have a dichotomy: be consistent and end in a moral absurdity; or, be inconsistent and reveal how your attitude to this case reeks of paternalism and orientalism.

In the current situation we're talking about a young pregnant British woman who wants to return to Britain. She should be allowed to return and helped to do so as far as is practical. The same would go for any British citizen regardless of gender or ethnicity or political orientation, although the pergnacy clearly makes the situation more urgent as would a serious health condition .

As far as I can gather she has no other nationality so there is no other state she could move to. There's no indication that she is being accused of any crime in the location she is currently located. If she were she should as far as practical be offered consular support. Wherever she is she has the right to a fair trial, again it is the British states duty to try to ensure this happens.

 

[eoin_k]

I missed the bit where a British passport entitles the bearer, either legally or morally, to get airlifted out of every mess they find themselves in, innocently or not.

The inscription might read:
"Her Britannic Majesty's Secretary of State Requests and requires in the Name of Her Majesty all those whom it may concern to allow the bearer to pass freely without let or hindrance, and to afford the bearer such assistance and protection as may be necessary."

But, I don't think this is meant to be read too literally these days.

I'm sure that if you're Ellen McArthur and get into a bit of bother in the South Atlantic, they might consider scrambling a rescue helicopter for the feel-good headlines, but that's a different matter.

 

[Athos]

She should be allowed to return and helped to do so as far as is practical. The same would go for any British citizen regardless of gender or ethnicity or political orientation...

Why should she be helped given the opportunity cost of helping her in a situation of limited consular resources? Are all British people equally worthy of help, and more worthy than all non-British people?

And how would you answer the question in my previous post?

... there's limited resources (if only insofar as the order in which it's practically possible to help people). If you had to decide to use them to help an unrepentant British neo-nazi or a blameless victim of fascism, which would you choose, and why?

 

[Shechemite]

Still not sure why Begum is more deserving of being rescued than the hundreds of thousands of refugees

 

[LDC]

Still not sure why Begum is more deserving of being rescued than the hundreds of thousands of refugees

Who through her support of IS enabled them to become refugees, those that weren't killed instead at least.

 

[Spymaster]

Still not sure why Begum is more deserving of being rescued than the hundreds of thousands of refugees

I doubt she's the only preganant woman in the camp either. Should priority be given to someone who has enabled the rape of others, over the victims, just because she's from Bethnal Green?

 

[Shechemite]

She may be a fascist supporting scumbag, but she’s our fascist supporting scumbag (so fuck you yazidi slaves eh?)

 

[littlebabyjesus]

In the current situation we're talking about a young pregnant British woman who wants to return to Britain. She should be allowed to return and helped to do so as far as is practical. The same would go for any British citizen regardless of gender or ethnicity or political orientation, although the pergnacy clearly makes the situation more urgent as would a serious health condition ..

While I broadly agree that she should be allowed back, and perhaps helped to come back, being a member of IS is rather more than a 'political orientation'. That is to understate the case and to do a disservice to the thousands of victims of these fuckers.

 

[eoin_k]

Still not sure why Begum is more deserving of being rescued than the hundreds of thousands of refugees

I imagine there are quite a few others who, like her, are entitled to consular support and discover that it doesn't amount to much when they find themselves in dire straits. No doubt, race and class play out in terms of who is deemed worthy of a bit of largesse. But generally the state doesn't bail Britains out when they get into sticky situations abroad:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/support-for-british-nationals-abroad-a-guide/support-for-british-nationals-abroad-summary

We cannot:
[...]

• 
  Issue you with a new or replacement passport, or accept passport applications because passports are issued by Her Majesty’s Passport Office in the UK
  
  
• 
  Pay any bills or give you money because we are not funded to do this and you would not get these bills paid for you if you were in the UK. You should take responsibility for yourself. It would be unfair for those who take out insurance to subsidise those who do not
  [...]
• 
  Investigate crimes, get you out of prison, prevent the local authorities from deporting you after your prison sentence, or interfere in criminal or civil court proceedings. This is because we cannot interfere in another country’s processes and must respect their systems, just as we expect them to respect the UK’s laws and legal processes
  [...]
• 
  Make travel arrangements for you, or find you work or accommodation, or make business arrangements on your behalf. This is because these are private arrangements which are your responsibility to make for yourself

Ironically enough, if she can find her way to a consulate in Turkey, she'll probably get brought back.