British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

[littlebabyjesus]

She was 15.

She was born in 2000.

She was Muslim.

She lived her whole life in a country where Muslims were demonised every single day in the media. Where she was told she was the enemy. Where far right groups formed specifically to target her.

Never mind the stuff we don't know about her. What might have been happening at school or at home. Just look at the stuff we know.

You're a lot slacker on the anti racist stuff when it doesn't concern the single market, aren't you?

So now I'm a racist because I suggest she had some idea what IS were about? fuck's sake man. None of what you say about growing up here precludes that, and no doubt it contributed to her state of mind. But she went out there believing she was taking part in a jihad, building an Islamic state, and wanted to marry a fighter there. She knew she was going to a war zone and she wanted to be a part of it. She will also have known at the very least that they captured and killed people.

I actually give her more credit than you appear to be doing. You don't appear to grant her any agency in this at all.

 

[Treacle Toes]

No it's not. Four years ago I was aware of most of the shit IS were up to. She looked into it. She will have known much better than me. The idea that she didn't have any idea that they were a bunch of murdering cunts is absurd. Of course she knew. And her reaction was 'can I join?'

You are reaching all over the place with this. You have zero idea what info she was reading and believing at the time. Sure you can argue she should have and could have known better/more but not that she did! Seriously, you are usually more measured about the stuff you actually can't know...

 

[SpackleFrog]

So now I'm a racist because I suggest she had some idea what IS were about? fuck's sake man. None of what you say about growing up here precludes that, and no doubt it contributed to her state of mind. But she went out there believing she was taking part in a jihad, building an Islamic state, and wanted to marry a fighter there. She knew she was going to a war zone and she wanted to be a part of it. She will also have known at the very least that they captured and killed people.

I actually give her more credit than you appear to be doing. You don't appear to grant her any agency in this at all.

I don't know why I'm responding to you really when there's far worse on here I'm too sickened by to respond to...

But I'm not saying she didn't have agency. She chose to do what she did. Not really what I'm saying though is it?

She chose that. And you're saying that means she's irredeemable. I'm saying I can't believe you would say such a thing, without even thinking about why she chose that.

Do you think a happy, healthy, well looked after teenager does that?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You are reaching all over the place with this. You have zero idea what info she was reading and believing at the time. Sure you can argue she should have and could have known better/more but not that she did! Seriously, you are usually more measured about the stuff you actually can't know...

No the reaching is the pretence that perhaps she somehow didn't know what IS were about. She may not have known fully, but a pretty good idea? Yes. That's why she went.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

She chose that. And you're saying that means she's irredeemable.

ffs not this again. You can't be arsed to read my posts? Fine. But do me the courtesy of not making up crap that I haven't said. If you read back I've specifically said exactly the opposite many times.

 

[Spymaster]

And you're saying that means she's irredeemable.

He's said nothing of the sort. In fact he's suggested quite the opposite.

 

[Saul Goodman]

I don't know why I'm responding to you really when there's far worse on here I'm too sickened by to respond to...

But I'm not saying she didn't have agency. She chose to do what she did. Not really what I'm saying though is it?

She chose that. And you're saying that means she's irredeemable. I'm saying I can't believe you would say such a thing, without even thinking about why she chose that.

Do you think a happy, healthy, well looked after teenager does that?

What would YOU suggest should happen to her?

 

[xenon]

Young muslim women, your agency is non existent when men on the interwebs need to make shit anti imperialist arguments.

Where's Magnus or Santino. Don't make me do all this...

 

[Riklet]

Funny that most of the people she oppressed and abused inevitably in her role as a slave-owning IS fighter trophy wife happen to be Muslim as well. And probably women. #intersectionaloppresion

Or if they were Yazidi, even worse, and careful reading the grim grim grim acounts and stories online, snowflakes who feel sorry for this monstrous teenager.

"We" did not create this young woman. This is a cop out when it comes to moral decisions. Obviously societal factors are key, and hugely important, but if you decide to rob people for a living, chuck acid on people, murder civilians in concentration camps or in her case, run off and join IS and stay for 4 years, at some point it all comes down to your own moral agency.

 

[krtek a houby]

She's was a kid. Still is. Who knows, she could grow up to be a tory councillor, or something.

 

[Shechemite]

Also not sure why she should be front of the queue to be rescued from a war zone (simply by virtue of her nationality)

 

[Spymaster]

"We" did not create this young woman. This is a cop out when it comes to moral decisions. Obviously societal factors are key, and hugely important, but if you decide to rob people for a living, chuck acid on people, murder civilians in concentration camps or in her case, run off and join IS and stay for 4 years, at some point it all comes down to your own moral agency.

No no no ... western imperialism ... Bush ... Blair ... the army ... Saudi Arabia ...

 

[Riklet]

Fred West, victim of Gloucester's shittiness.

 

[krtek a houby]

"We" did not create this young woman. This is a cop out when it comes to moral decisions. Obviously societal factors are key, and hugely important, but if you decide to rob people for a living, chuck acid on people, murder civilians in concentration camps or in her case, run off and join IS and stay for 4 years, at some point it all comes down to your own moral agency.

Oddly, I use to think the same of IRA folks. That they simply came out of nowhere, just like that & were into it purely for the kicks.

If you grow up being demonised on a daily basis, being told that you're different and that you're a terrorist... hardly surprising a few people are going to get radicalised.

 

[SpackleFrog]

ffs not this again. You can't be arsed to read my posts? Fine. But do me the courtesy of not making up crap that I haven't said. If you read back I've specifically said exactly the opposite many times.

Alright, you didn't say she was irredeemable. You said she knew what she was getting in to.

Young muslim women, your agency is non existent when men on the interwebs need to make shit anti imperialist arguments.

Where's Magnus or Santino. Don't make me do all this...

It's nothing to do with agency. She has agency. She made choices. We all have agency, we all make choices. Doesn't mean we do it from a position of full knowledge - especially when we're 15. I'm talking about imperialism because people have suggested messed up kids from London are responsible for the existence of Daesh. Daesh had a recruitment strategy - part of which was to target disaffected marginalised Muslim youth in the West. Guess what? It worked with some of them. It worked precisely because of imperialism in the Middle East and a rise in racism and Islamophobia in the West.

What would YOU suggest should happen to her?

All this is all the more annoying by the way because what I actually suggested should happen had nothing to do with the girl - I said either she makes it to a consulate and she'll go through interrogation/criminal charges/social services, or she won't and won't ever come back to Britain, and I thought it was a non story that didn't need to be reported on.

What I said should happen is people here should stop expressing opinions on how dangerous she is, how consciously evil she was capable of being at 15, and whether or not it was a risk.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Alright, you didn't say she was irredeemable. You said she knew what she was getting in to.



It's nothing to do with agency. She has agency. She made choices. We all have agency, we all make choices. Doesn't mean we do it from a position of full knowledge - especially when we're 15. I'm talking about imperialism because people have suggested messed up kids from London are responsible for the existence of Daesh. Daesh had a recruitment strategy - part of which was to target disaffected marginalised Muslim youth in the West. Guess what? It worked with some of them. It worked precisely because of imperialism in the Middle East and a rise in racism and Islamophobia in the West.



All this is all the more annoying by the way because what I actually suggested should happen had nothing to do with the girl - I said either she makes it to a consulate and she'll go through interrogation/criminal charges/social services, or she won't and won't ever come back to Britain, and I thought it was a non story that didn't need to be reported on.

What I said should happen is people here should stop expressing opinions on how dangerous she is, how consciously evil she was capable of being at 15, and whether or not it was a risk.

Do you not consider her a risk?

 

[Don Troooomp]

Do you not consider her a risk?

I do.
The vast majority of Muslims I've met have been perfectly nice people, but I'm a bit concerned about the extremist minority.
The question of her return and potential punishment has to be considered very carefully, and without any political bias.

 

[Shechemite]

Strange post

 

[Saul Goodman]

I do.
The vast majority of Muslims I've met have been perfectly nice people, but I'm a bit concerned about the extremist minority.
The question of her return and potential punishment has to be considered very carefully, and without any political bias.

I don't know what the score is. Did she commit a crime in the UK?
I have no idea how laws work around such a scenario, but, if I was in charge of the the lettings in, I'm fucked if I'd let her back in. She could rot in the hellhole of her choosing, because the only way to guarantee she wouldn't be a threat, would be to lock her up at taxpayer's expense. Fuck that, you make your bed, you cry in it.

 

[hash tag]

She is a British citizen with a British passport, we are legally bound to let her in. Besides, what right do we have to palm her off on somewhere else.
Has anyone mentioned at 8 months pregnant, she can't fly, no one will take her.

 

[Saul Goodman]

She is a British citizen with a British passport, we are legally bound to let her in. Besides, what right do we have to palm her off on somewhere else.
Has anyone mentioned at 8 months pregnant, she can't fly, no one will take her.

I know nothing about her or her circumstances, but, in fairness, she already palmed herself on on someone else. If she does return to the UK, should she be allowed back into the general populace, or should she be locked up?

 

[hash tag]

Let the legal system Takes its course as I'm in really no position to judge.

 

[Athos]

No - for describing a situation in which an innocent child suffers as "win/win".

Although for the record, if I was picking you up on your opposition to bigotry I'd probably highlight your transphobia and call you a hypocrite.

I've no desire to see her child suffer (albeit I see no particular reason to do more for him our her than for the millions of other children in terrible situations).

Transphobia.

 

[Athos]

If you want someone to blame for Daesh then you can start with Dubya and Blair.

It's not an either/or. Nobody's arguing that they're blameless, or that their actions and lots of other factors played no part in making this woman what she is.

 

[hash tag]

So, who wants to sit next to her on the tube?

Alternatively, if you are frightened of visiting London (or major city) or frightened of using the tube, they have won. They have disrupted your life and clearly got their "point" across. They have stopped you from enjoying these things or maybe even stopped you from doing them.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Do you not consider her a risk?

Where did I say that? Lots of people are a risk. I think you're a risk. Lots of people in this country right now are a risk. Some of them might even be white!

 

[SpackleFrog]

It's not an either/or. Nobody's arguing that they're blameless, or that their actions and lots of other factors played no part in making this woman what she is.

What was that win/win bullshit then?

 

[Athos]

In her recent interview, she alludes to having seen Daesh propaganda videos before she joined. One such video circulating in the weeks before she went showed a man being burned alive. It was also on the front pages of the papers and top story on the news. Quite apart from what she must have subsequently seen first hand, the idea that, by 2015, a 15 year old in Briton who had access to the internet and an interest in Daesh might not have known (at least some) of the horrors they were committing is laughably implausible, and suggests a desperation excuse the inexcusable (and it is inexcusable notwithstanding the role western governments played in creating an environment in which it was possible for Daesh to recruit her). Especially as she's not even claiming not to have been aware of what Daesh were doing; quite the opposite - even now, she seems comfortable with atrocities like beheading enemies of Islam.

 

[Athos]

What was that win/win bullshit then?

It was a reflection of my lack of sympathy for her.

 

[Dogsauce]

Aside from how you feel about her as an individual, can I say that I’d reserve a harsher punishment for newspaper editors who run headlines about her having a baby ‘on the NHS’. Fuck right off with that ‘you pay for this’ narrative, it’s more toxic and costs more lives than daesh ever will.

Leveraging the issue for an attack on universalism is scraping the barrel.