British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

[SpackleFrog]

It was a reflection of my lack of sympathy for her.

So much for understanding the different factors that led her there.

 

[Athos]

So much for understanding the different factors that led her there.

I understand them; I don't think they excuse her conduct to the extent that I have sympathy for her current plight.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

[QUOTE="Riklet, post: 15931841, member: 18282"

"We" did not create this young woman. This is a cop out when it comes to moral decisions. Obviously societal factors are key, and hugely important, but if you decide to rob people for a living, chuck acid on people, murder civilians in concentration camps or in her case, run off and join IS and stay for 4 years, at some point it all comes down to your own moral agency.[/QUOTE]

One of the oddest things about much of the left is that they’ve forgotten this basic truth about humanity.

The agency of humans is washed away in this analysis and everything explained by external factors and pressures. As you say these are significant and important but given that not everyone born Muslim and living in Bethnal Green went off to Syria to join a medieval cult can’t be the whole story.

It’s a risible explanation as the ‘teenage jinks that got out of hand’ one.

 

[Edie]

I’ve read the whole thread. Still have no idea what’s right. Really can see the side that says fuck her, but then I think she’s a young woman with a baby and I find that hard to do.

Maybe best her family go and bring her back? Would that be possible?

 

[Athos]

I’ve read the whole thread. Still have no idea what’s right. Really can see the side that says fuck her, but then I think she’s a young woman with a baby and I find that hard to do.

Maybe best her family go and bring her back? Would that be possible?

There'd be a lot of practical difficulties e.g. her being too pregnant to fly, the risk to the family, whether or not she has a passport, etc.

 

[Edie]

There'd be a lot of practical difficulties e.g. her being too pregnant to fly, the risk to the family, whether or not she has a passport, etc.

True.

It’s just difficult to say leave her, fuck her. Partly due to the age she was when she left, partly because she’s a young pregnant woman and there’s soon to be a newborn involved. Anyway I’ve nothing useful to add here.

 

[Athos]

True.

It’s just difficult to say leave her, fuck her. Partly due to the age she was when she left, partly because she’s a young pregnant woman and there’s soon to be a newborn involved. Anyway I’ve nothing useful to add here.

There's loads of people in refugee camps I'd like to help before her. Young people and pregnant people. People who are there through no fault of their own.

I guess that, if and when her child is born, he or she would fall into that category - I'd have no issue with the kid being taken in, not least of all to minimise the chance of her poisoning his or her mind with the vicious ideology to which it appears she still subscribes.

But I find the expectation that I should have solidarity with this bigot because of the accident of our births - that we're both 'British' - a bizarre position for anyone who claims to be on the left to adopt.

 

[A380]

What is it about this perverted form of Islam that gets a very few on the left to take such contrary views to the ones they normally hold about gender equality, LGBT rights and , well just not being fascist slave holding dicks really?

This is a genuine question BTW not intended to be a hand grenade.

 

[chilango]

Perhaps a different, more useful, way of looking at this is to stop thinking about her behaviour and start thinking about ours.

What sort of values and ethics would we like to emphasize in these kinds of situations?

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

What is it about this perverted form of Islam that gets a very few on the left to take such contrary views to the ones they normally hold about gender equality, LGBT rights and , well just not being fascist slave holding dicks really?

This is a genuine question BTW not intended to be a hand grenade.

I don't think the "that's just their culture" typical airhead defence is limited to Islam at all, for example this Slovakian guy that worked at the home I'm in was struck off the SSSC register for numerous complaints , one being sexual harassment of women there. The guy advocating for him said that he was behaving like that towards women because of his culture. I hear that all the time, it's just the Islam stuff is more prominent.

 

[Athos]

Perhaps a different, more useful, way of looking at this is to stop thinking about her behaviour and start thinking about ours.

What sort of values and ethics would we like to emphasize in these kinds of situations?

A robust and uncompromising resistance to fascism in all its forms.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Perhaps a different, more useful, way of looking at this is to stop thinking about her behaviour and start thinking about ours.

What sort of values and ethics would we like to emphasize in these kinds of situations?

That if you make a choice to join a group of religious nutters who like killing people who disagree with them, that's up to you, but don't expect anyone to put themselves at risk in order to rescue you.

Which is what's happening.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

A robust and uncompromising resistance to fascism in all its forms.

Woah, come on now baby steps

 

[Don Troooomp]

I suppose a lot depends on what she did while she was out there.
If she was just an idiot with high ideals but didn't commit or support any acts of violence, that would be different to her taking an active role in such things.

As I don't know either way, it's hard to form an opinion.

 

[Athos]

I suppose a lot depends on what she did while she was out there.
If she was just an idiot with high ideals but didn't commit or support any acts of violence, that would be different to her taking an active role in such things.

As I don't know either way, it's hard to form an opinion.

The role for which she volunteered - wife of an IS fighter - provides physical and emotional support to the men who make up IS. It implicates such volunteers in the crimes of the organisation. These aren't some poor local girls with no choices, whose husbands join up against their wishes; they're people who actively chose to support the IS project.

 

[brogdale]

The role for which she volunteered - wife of an IS fighter - provides physical and emotional support to the men who make up IS. It implicates such volunteers in the crimes of the organisation. These aren't some poor local girls with no choices, whose husbands join up against their wishes; they're people who actively chose to support the IS project.

A formal judgement of such will only occur on her return to the UK, of course.

 

[Athos]

A formal judgement of such will only occur on her return to the UK, of course.

A state judgment, yes. Meantime, I can make my own. Based not least of all upon her own account!

 

[brogdale]

A state judgment, yes. Meantime, I can make my own. Based not least of all upon her own account!

Of course, but with the ususal caveats that all of what we know of her "own account" has been mediated by the Murdoch press based upon an interview conducted in a potentially lethal environment.

 

[Chilli.s]

There's only so much compassion to go round and there are more needy cases than hers. I find it hard to give a rats arse what happens to her. This causes me too much internal conflict so I wont engage further.

 

[Athos]

Of course, but with the ususal caveats that all of what we know of her "own account" has been mediated by the Murdoch press based upon an interview conducted in a potentially lethal environment.

The words appear to be her own, and the fact that she felt able to say that the Caliphate had lost its way to the extent that she doesn't think it deserves to win suggest you me that she's not overly fearful of reprisals. Which tends to suggest that she we truthful when she volunteered that she was unfazed by beheadings of enemies of Islam, rather than express remorse for her involvement with Daesh. There's no reason to think she's anything other than an adherent to the IS ideology that initially attracted her to join.

 

[brogdale]

The words appear to be her own, and the fact that she felt able to say that the Caliphate had lost its way to the extent that she doesn't think it deserves to win suggest you me that she's not overly fearful of reprisals. Which tends to suggest that she we truthful when she volunteered that she was unfazed by beheadings of enemies of Islam, rather than express remorse for her involvement with Daesh. There's no reason to think she's anything other than an adherent to the IS ideology that initially attracted her to join.

Well obviously, we're also free to speculate on how her comments relate to her present surroundings/security etc....but speculation is just that, isn't it?

 

[Athos]

Well obviously, we're also free to speculate on how her comments relate to her present surroundings/security etc....but speculation is just that, isn't it?

Well, 'speculation' is a pejorative descriptor; equally, you could call it 'weighing up all the evidence we have'. It's all any of us can do.

 

[inva]

The words appear to be her own, and the fact that she felt able to say that the Caliphate had lost its way to the extent that she doesn't think it deserves to win suggest you me that she's not overly fearful of reprisals.

that might not be too out of keeping with other IS militants. i don't know how they have ideologically responded to their military defeats as a group, but it wouldn't be too surprising if they viewed it sort of fatalistically as a case of them not having been pure/worthy enough and it not being gods will that they won. i have seen comments reported from individual fighters along those lines at least.

 

[eoin_k]

She condemned them for torturing their own, based on her husband's reports from one of their prisons. That doesn't sound on message.

 

[inva]

She condemned them for torturing their own, based on her husband's reports from one of their prisons. That doesn't sound on message.

maybe not with what remains of it as an organised group, but with other individual militants/ex-militants it might be different. but i suppose there's really not much point in me guessing about it anyway.

 

[Cloo]

I found it very weighted that the Metro headline was about 'Jihadi bride wants her baby *on the NHS*', as if how dare she use our precious NHS. It's rather different if you look at it as British girl wants to have her baby somewhere it won't die unlike her last two.

Yes I also get being unsympathetic to her, but it doesn't mean get baby ought to suffer the consequences of her foolishness.

 

[brogdale]

Well, 'speculation' is a pejorative descriptor; equally, you could call it 'weighing up all the evidence we have'. It's all any of us can do.

If you perceive the term speculation as pejorative then I suppose it is, but the word is not inherently pejorative, it merely describes the formulation of an idea without all of the evidence. I'd say that pretty much sums up where we are with this, wouldn't you?

 

[eoin_k]

maybe not with what remains of it as an organised group, but with other individual militants/ex-militants it might be different. but i suppose there's really not much point in me guessing about it anyway.

She has described the death of her two children, she has described her husband witnessing the torture of devout Muslims in an Isis prison, she has described the corruption of a 'Caliphate' she no longer believes deserves to win. I am struggling to see what would be so much more dangerous about her saying. 'Yeah, with hindsight I might have been better off staying at home.'

 

[Athos]

If you perceive the term speculation as pejorative then I suppose it is, but the word is not inherently pejorative, it merely describes the formulation of an idea without all of the evidence. I'd say that pretty much sums up where we are with this, wouldn't you?

Yes. Though I'd say we almost never have ALL the evidence when reaching any judgement.

 

[Athos]

She has described the death of her two children, she has described her husband witnessing the torture of devout Muslims in an Isis prison, she has described the corruption of a 'Caliphate' she no longer believes deserves to win. I am struggling to see what would be so much more dangerous about her saying. 'Yeah, with hindsight I might have been better off staying at home.'

The obvious answer is that the reason she doesn't say that isn't fear, but because, fundamentally, she still believes in the ideology of a Caliphate and its corollary ideas e.g. the beheading of enemies of Islam.