SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
So much for understanding the different factors that led her there.
British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'
- Thread starter hipipol
- Start date
So much for understanding the different factors that led her there.
Athos
Well-Known Member
I understand them; I don't think they excuse her conduct to the extent that I have sympathy for her current plight.
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Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
[QUOTE="Riklet, post: 15931841, member: 18282"
"We" did not create this young woman. This is a cop out when it comes to moral decisions. Obviously societal factors are key, and hugely important, but if you decide to rob people for a living, chuck acid on people, murder civilians in concentration camps or in her case, run off and join IS and stay for 4 years, at some point it all comes down to your own moral agency.[/QUOTE]
One of the oddest things about much of the left is that they’ve forgotten this basic truth about humanity.
The agency of humans is washed away in this analysis and everything explained by external factors and pressures. As you say these are significant and important but given that not everyone born Muslim and living in Bethnal Green went off to Syria to join a medieval cult can’t be the whole story.
It’s a risible explanation as the ‘teenage jinks that got out of hand’ one.
"We" did not create this young woman. This is a cop out when it comes to moral decisions. Obviously societal factors are key, and hugely important, but if you decide to rob people for a living, chuck acid on people, murder civilians in concentration camps or in her case, run off and join IS and stay for 4 years, at some point it all comes down to your own moral agency.[/QUOTE]
One of the oddest things about much of the left is that they’ve forgotten this basic truth about humanity.
The agency of humans is washed away in this analysis and everything explained by external factors and pressures. As you say these are significant and important but given that not everyone born Muslim and living in Bethnal Green went off to Syria to join a medieval cult can’t be the whole story.
It’s a risible explanation as the ‘teenage jinks that got out of hand’ one.
Athos
Well-Known Member
There'd be a lot of practical difficulties e.g. her being too pregnant to fly, the risk to the family, whether or not she has a passport, etc.
True.
It’s just difficult to say leave her, fuck her. Partly due to the age she was when she left, partly because she’s a young pregnant woman and there’s soon to be a newborn involved. Anyway I’ve nothing useful to add here.
Athos
Well-Known Member
There's loads of people in refugee camps I'd like to help before her. Young people and pregnant people. People who are there through no fault of their own.
I guess that, if and when her child is born, he or she would fall into that category - I'd have no issue with the kid being taken in, not least of all to minimise the chance of her poisoning his or her mind with the vicious ideology to which it appears she still subscribes.
But I find the expectation that I should have solidarity with this bigot because of the accident of our births - that we're both 'British' - a bizarre position for anyone who claims to be on the left to adopt.
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A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
What is it about this perverted form of Islam that gets a very few on the left to take such contrary views to the ones they normally hold about gender equality, LGBT rights and , well just not being fascist slave holding dicks really?
This is a genuine question BTW not intended to be a hand grenade.
This is a genuine question BTW not intended to be a hand grenade.
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HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
I don't think the "that's just their culture" typical airhead defence is limited to Islam at all, for example this Slovakian guy that worked at the home I'm in was struck off the SSSC register for numerous complaints , one being sexual harassment of women there. The guy advocating for him said that he was behaving like that towards women because of his culture. I hear that all the time, it's just the Islam stuff is more prominent.
Athos
Well-Known Member
A robust and uncompromising resistance to fascism in all its forms.
ElizabethofYork
Old Crone
That if you make a choice to join a group of religious nutters who like killing people who disagree with them, that's up to you, but don't expect anyone to put themselves at risk in order to rescue you.
Which is what's happening.
HoratioCuthbert
Deep seated inconsequence
Woah, come on now baby steps
I suppose a lot depends on what she did while she was out there.
If she was just an idiot with high ideals but didn't commit or support any acts of violence, that would be different to her taking an active role in such things.
As I don't know either way, it's hard to form an opinion.
If she was just an idiot with high ideals but didn't commit or support any acts of violence, that would be different to her taking an active role in such things.
As I don't know either way, it's hard to form an opinion.
Athos
Well-Known Member
The role for which she volunteered - wife of an IS fighter - provides physical and emotional support to the men who make up IS. It implicates such volunteers in the crimes of the organisation. These aren't some poor local girls with no choices, whose husbands join up against their wishes; they're people who actively chose to support the IS project.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
A formal judgement of such will only occur on her return to the UK, of course.
Athos
Well-Known Member
A state judgment, yes. Meantime, I can make my own. Based not least of all upon her own account!
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Of course, but with the ususal caveats that all of what we know of her "own account" has been mediated by the Murdoch press based upon an interview conducted in a potentially lethal environment.
Athos
Well-Known Member
The words appear to be her own, and the fact that she felt able to say that the Caliphate had lost its way to the extent that she doesn't think it deserves to win suggest you me that she's not overly fearful of reprisals. Which tends to suggest that she we truthful when she volunteered that she was unfazed by beheadings of enemies of Islam, rather than express remorse for her involvement with Daesh. There's no reason to think she's anything other than an adherent to the IS ideology that initially attracted her to join.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Well obviously, we're also free to speculate on how her comments relate to her present surroundings/security etc....but speculation is just that, isn't it?
Athos
Well-Known Member
Well, 'speculation' is a pejorative descriptor; equally, you could call it 'weighing up all the evidence we have'. It's all any of us can do.
that might not be too out of keeping with other IS militants. i don't know how they have ideologically responded to their military defeats as a group, but it wouldn't be too surprising if they viewed it sort of fatalistically as a case of them not having been pure/worthy enough and it not being gods will that they won. i have seen comments reported from individual fighters along those lines at least.
maybe not with what remains of it as an organised group, but with other individual militants/ex-militants it might be different. but i suppose there's really not much point in me guessing about it anyway.
Cloo
Banana for scale
I found it very weighted that the Metro headline was about 'Jihadi bride wants her baby *on the NHS*', as if how dare she use our precious NHS. It's rather different if you look at it as British girl wants to have her baby somewhere it won't die unlike her last two.
Yes I also get being unsympathetic to her, but it doesn't mean get baby ought to suffer the consequences of her foolishness.
Yes I also get being unsympathetic to her, but it doesn't mean get baby ought to suffer the consequences of her foolishness.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
If you perceive the term speculation as pejorative then I suppose it is, but the word is not inherently pejorative, it merely describes the formulation of an idea without all of the evidence. I'd say that pretty much sums up where we are with this, wouldn't you?
eoin_k
Lawyer's fees, beetroot and music
She has described the death of her two children, she has described her husband witnessing the torture of devout Muslims in an Isis prison, she has described the corruption of a 'Caliphate' she no longer believes deserves to win. I am struggling to see what would be so much more dangerous about her saying. 'Yeah, with hindsight I might have been better off staying at home.'
Athos
Well-Known Member
Yes. Though I'd say we almost never have ALL the evidence when reaching any judgement.
Athos
Well-Known Member
The obvious answer is that the reason she doesn't say that isn't fear, but because, fundamentally, she still believes in the ideology of a Caliphate and its corollary ideas e.g. the beheading of enemies of Islam.
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