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British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

To those of you cheering along the Begum decision, are you not even a tiny bit ashamed of yourselves for supporting the idea that her case should be treated differently due to her extreme youth?

No, not least because she wasn't stripped of her citizenship at 15, when you could make a good argument that she wasn't really old enough to make good decisions, nor was she stripped of her citizenship at 18 when she became an adult and entirely entitled and able to make her own decisions about her life - she was given, in effect, an 18 month 'grace' period between becoming an adult and being stripped of her citizenship.

I rather doubt you'd accept the state or 'community representatives' saying that a 19yo wasn't entitled to make decisions about who they wanted to marry - or not marry - who they wanted to vote for, what job they wanted to do, or what they wanted to wear, or not wear, so I'm somewhat puzzled (obviously I'm not) as to why you think that if she, as any other 19yo wasn't entitled to make decisions about her life, and to accept the consequences of those decisions.
 
To those of you cheering along the Begum decision, are you not even a tiny bit ashamed of yourselves for supporting the idea that her case should be treated differently due to her extreme youth?

Also, you continue to conflate a valid criticism of the law with a suggestion that it's not been applied properly in this case.
 
No, not least because she wasn't stripped of her citizenship at 15, when you could make a good argument that she wasn't really old enough to make good decisions, nor was she stripped of her citizenship at 18 when she became an adult and entirely entitled and able to make her own decisions about her life - she was given, in effect, an 18 month 'grace' period between becoming an adult and being stripped of her citizenship.

I rather doubt you'd accept the state or 'community representatives' saying that a 19yo wasn't entitled to make decisions about who they wanted to marry - or not marry - who they wanted to vote for, what job they wanted to do, or what they wanted to wear, or not wear, so I'm somewhat puzzled (obviously I'm not) as to why you think that if she, as any other 19yo wasn't entitled to make decisions about her life, and to accept the consequences of those decisions.
That would be a better argument if she'd known she was a Bangladeshi and chosen not to do anything about it on reaching adulthood.
 
That would be a better argument if she'd known she was a Bangladeshi and chosen not to do anything about it on reaching adulthood.

And who's word do you have that she didn't, and do you theres the tiniest reason for them to be a bit circumspect about whether they did or not?

Do you think she wants to go to Bangladesh?

You're interested - not unreasonably - in the law, I'm more interested in the principle of a community deciding that someone who is a member of that community, but who joins another community, then makes war on their original community, and then attempts to come back when it all goes tits up, can be told to feck off, and the idea that they are unwanted by anyone is a) their problem, and b) a possibility they should have thought a bit harder about when coming up with this whizzo plan...
 
Not the killer post someone thought it would be then.

No, the complete opposite. The judgement specifically reinforces the idea that British citizens with Bangladeshi parents are automatically citizens of Bangladesh until they reach 21. Something that's been tested a number of times, now, and upheld in every instance (accepting that her appeal remains to be decided).
 
And who's word do you have that she didn't, and do you theres the tiniest reason for them to be a bit circumspect about whether they did or not?

Do you think she wants to go to Bangladesh?

You're interested - not unreasonably - in the law, I'm more interested in the principle of a community deciding that someone who is a member of that community, but who joins another community, then makes war on their original community, and then attempts to come back when it all goes tits up, can be told to feck off, and the idea that they are unwanted by anyone is a) their problem, and b) a possibility they should have thought a bit harder about when coming up with this whizzo plan...

I'm unaware of any independent evidence either way. Though, I consider that, on the balance of probabilities,it's inherently unlikely that she was aware of her dual citizenship given all the circumstances.

I'm sure she doesn't want to go to Bangladesh; she'd likely face execution!

I get that you're more interested in achieving the outcome you favour than the niceties of the law. But I'm sure you appreciate that's not unproblematic; the risks of HS wielding power without sufficient safeguards, even if, for now at least, its being wielded against scumbags for whom you have no sympathy.
 
And who's word do you have that she didn't, and do you theres the tiniest reason for them to be a bit circumspect about whether they did or not?

Do you think she wants to go to Bangladesh?

You're interested - not unreasonably - in the law, I'm more interested in the principle of a community deciding that someone who is a member of that community, but who joins another community, then makes war on their original community, and then attempts to come back when it all goes tits up, can be told to feck off, and the idea that they are unwanted by anyone is a) their problem, and b) a possibility they should have thought a bit harder about when coming up with this whizzo plan...
perhaps the precedent of john amery might have been followed, where the uk didn't leave him languishing in italy but brought him home. do you think this woman is more dangerous than john amery?
 
perhaps the precedent of john amery might have been followed, where the uk didn't leave him languishing in italy but brought him home. do you think this woman is more dangerous than john amery?

My problem with bringing her back - and I fully accept that there are problems for us in leaving her there - is that the legal/security protections for us are both not exactly foolproof and staggeringly expensive. John Amery got, and was only ever going to get, the rope - which is both cheap and has a 100% success rate.

As that option doesn't apply, it's not really a valid comparison.

I'm unaware of any independent evidence either way. Though, I consider that, on the balance of probabilities,it's inherently unlikely that she was aware of her dual citizenship given all the circumstances.

I'm sure she doesn't want to go to Bangladesh; she'd likely face execution!

I get that you're more interested in achieving the outcome you favour than the niceties of the law. But I'm sure you appreciate that's not unproblematic; the risks of HS wielding power without sufficient safeguards, even if, for now at least, its being wielded against scumbags for whom you have no sympathy.

The answer to the legitimate concern of the HS welding such power is not to remover the power, but to remove it from the HS: parliament should legislate, setting out the conditions under which it can be done, HS then takes their case to either the Supreme Court, or more politically, a star chamber of MP's who decide whether the conditions have been met.
 
The answer to the legitimate concern of the HS welding such power is not to remover the power, but to remove it from the HS: parliament should legislate, setting out the conditions under which it can be done, HS then takes their case to either the Supreme Court, or more politically, a star chamber of MP's who decide whether the conditions have been met.

I think that, as a minimum, there need to better checks and balances (though I'm not attracted to the idea of politicians deciding). But I think there's also good arguments for the removal of the power to strip citizenship per se. Though that would create other issues e.g. either the public are unprotected from these individuals, or the state is given other draconian powers to mitigate the risk.
 
I think that, as a minimum, there need to better checks and balances (though I'm not attracted to the idea of politicians deciding). But I think there's also good arguments for the removal of the power to strip citizenship per se. Though that would create other issues e.g. either the public are unprotected from these individuals, or the state is given other draconian powers to mitigate the risk.

Such as being able to lock up convicted criminals?
 
So she's so dangerous she can't be let back into the country to be held in prison while her case is heard in a court, which would almost certainly be a formality before she was returned to whence she came. I'm not sure from where you derive this imaginary situation where she's free to bowl about the country slitting throats and planting bombs. E2A not even sure she'd need to come back to blighty, some sort of fudge where she was held on the British base on Cyprus while engaging with a court remotely ought to meet what the sc suggested about a possible appeal

But then where does she go when the appeal fails🤷‍♂️
 
Such as being able to lock up convicted criminals?

Yes, but there's a gap between those who are a danger and those who are convicted, which arises from e.g. the inadmissibility of telephone interception evidence in criminal trials. Also, the length of sentences, and the risk people still pose when released after relatively short periods. We have to be carful what we wish for, as taking away this power might lead to others being boosted with unintended consequences.
 
To those of you cheering along the Begum decision, are you not even a tiny bit ashamed of yourselves for supporting the idea that her case should be treated differently due to her extreme youth?

A. Who's cheering it on.
B. Lots of legal decisions take into account youth when decisions are made. Not sure if you've noticed :p
C. Do you still think Bangladeshi law is some how erroneous?
 
A. Who's cheering it on.
B. Lots of legal decisions take into account youth when decisions are made. Not sure if you've noticed :p
C. Do you still think Bangladeshi law is some how erroneous?
A. There are a few. Read the thread.
B. Generally, youth is considered a mitigating factor, not something to be used as a stick.
C. I don't think this is about Bangladeshi law. I think it is about British law. And yes, if British law allows this, then it is wrong.
 
A. There are a few. Read the thread.
B. Generally, youth is considered a mitigating factor, not something to be used as a stick.
C. I don't think this is about Bangladeshi law. I think it is about British law. And yes, if British law allows this, then it is wrong.

I've been reading it. No one's cheering it on. That's just ad hominem rhetoric.


OK leave aside the Bangladesh constitutional legality point. Are there any circumstances in which you think a citizen of the UK can have their citizenship revoked, where it does not leave them stateless. i.e. where they have dual citizenship and they would not be rendered stateless as a result?

If not, fair enough, that's consistent.
 
As an aside, Begum popped up earlier this week in a documentary where she dresses in western clothes having ditched the all aspects of Islamic wear including any kind of head covering, she renounces ISIS and says she had no idea they were nasty killers and that, plus she never did anything other than housework. If all true that's lovely, but this thread is full of folk stating as fact that the camp she is in is internally run by ISIS and any slip in standards or denunciation of ideology would be fatal for her. So how come she's now free to say and do whatever is needed in her mind to return to the UK?
 
As an aside, Begum popped up earlier this week in a documentary where she dresses in western clothes having ditched the all aspects of Islamic wear including any kind of head covering, she renounces ISIS and says she had no idea they were nasty killers and that, plus she never did anything other than housework. If all true that's lovely, but this thread is full of folk stating as fact that the camp she is in is internally run by ISIS and any slip in standards or denunciation of ideology would be fatal for her. So how come she's now free to say and do whatever is needed in her mind to return to the UK?
presumably it's a cunning daesh plot to infiltrate her back into the country
 
The answer to the legitimate concern of the HS welding such power is not to remover the power, but to remove it from the HS: parliament should legislate, setting out the conditions under which it can be done, HS then takes their case to either the Supreme Court, or more politically, a star chamber of MP's who decide whether the conditions have been met.
The system works fine as it is, as the case that Rutita1 posted earlier demonstrates. The HS overstepped and the appeal succeeded. Voila.
 
As an aside, Begum popped up earlier this week in a documentary where she dresses in western clothes having ditched the all aspects of Islamic wear including any kind of head covering, she renounces ISIS and says she had no idea they were nasty killers and that, plus she never did anything other than housework. If all true that's lovely, but this thread is full of folk stating as fact that the camp she is in is internally run by ISIS and any slip in standards or denunciation of ideology would be fatal for her. So how come she's now free to say and do whatever is needed in her mind to return to the UK?
From what I've read factions have developed within the refugee camps and there are enough women not wearing the hijab that they can be relatively safe. This would suggest that she's burned her bridges with the Isis lot who wouldn't look kindly on her putting the slap on for the foreign journalists then getting her burka back out when they're gone.
 
A. There are a few. Read the thread.
B. Generally, youth is considered a mitigating factor, not something to be used as a stick.
C. I don't think this is about Bangladeshi law. I think it is about British law. And yes, if British law allows this, then it is wrong.

As English law stands, it IS about Bangladeshi law. What you mean is that it shouldn't be. You seem to struggle to differentiate between what is and what should be.
 

It's funny you mention intelligence, because in the case of the three girls who went to turkey, the effect was, turkey

arrested the man that brought them across the border, they long claimed he was a Canadian intelligence agent


They shut the turkey route into Syria that NATO was using to get the mujahedeen across



It was an international scandal so why wasn't she asked in the BBC interview who brought them across and how they contacted that person?

That Al-Qaeda were using American ordered eastern european arms was confirmed in this report


That ISIS was using US ordered Eastern European weapons was confirmed in conflict armament research's three year study of disposed battlefield arms in the weapons of the Islamic state study


Proven without doubt, from battlefield to supplier, to purchase order (ordered under us army licence diverted to a warzone)

Regardless of whether you intended to supply Al-Qaeda and ISIS you should be held accountable for dumping weapons into a war zone

And if you are supplying weapons to your militia pals why not just use US made weapons why use covertly ordered Eastern European weapons? Is it because if it ends up in the hands of 'the bad jihadis' as opposed to the good jihadis you have culpable deniability. Let's assume that the weapons reached their intended recipients because hey you have a history, remember the stingers remember Afghanistan. In a parallel of history they were also fighting a Russian satellite, just like Assad.

The history of the west's involvement with amateur jihadi warriors fighting the west's proxy wars starts with Afghanistan, the blessed mujahedeen, maybe Thatcher's last gift to humanity, an international of psychopathic mass murderers willing to fight the west's wars they've turned up in Tajikistan, Bosnia, Chechnya twice, Syria, Libya Iraq, Yemen, (all either russia or syria aligned states) after the Afghan civil war, according to Paul Stott's exacting doctorate study the UK became a safe haven for the mujahedeen fighters

British Jihadism - the detail and the denial

"In 1997 the United Kingdom banned the promotion of terrorism overseas. It was an
action that may be considered overdue – members of jihadist groups from at least 14
territories are shown to have settled in this country, with four major terrorist
organisations operating here – the Algerian GIA, Egyptian Islamic Jihad, Libyan
Islamic Fighting Group and Al-Qaeda."

Thatcher and Major allowed four extremely highly militant terrorist groups to openly take root in the UK along with almost every non violent politically Islamist group after the Afghan civil war. Those groups simply continued operating basing themselves in the UK coordinating the Paris attacks in 1994 the east African is embassy bombings in 1998, and the Algerian civil war. Remember Theresa May's grandstanding how she was standing up to terrorists by sending them home, the Tories let them in they created the problem. When the Tories came to power in 2010 they again used British Muslims to fight wars in Libya, Syria, Iraq, Yemen just as Thatcher did. The Tories see British Muslims as nothing more than disposable humans to die on a battlefield. They allowed the most manipulative people in history to openly operate and recruit from the British muslim community, frankly the British muslim community stood no chance while appeasers such as Michael Clarke and the king's college war studies department tolerated mass murdering violent jihadis on British streets recruiting gullible simpletons halfwits to kill themselves on foreign battlefields persuaded by charismatic preachers openly operating among us telling the dickhead brigade they will be pioneers in a beautiful new state while silently measuring them up for bomb vests


You see keeping this girl locked up in a camp won't do anything while the west continues a pattern of using dickheads who think they will achieve paradise by killing themselves in a kamikaze strategy to fight their proxy wars. The conservatives, NATO and the intelligence agencies introduced salafi jihadism to Britain. Lock them in a camp.
 
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